[Mad Dawg]

I didn't say that now did I?

Not so much. Correct. Affirmative AND 10-4.

So that means there are two sorts of knowledge, that for which we can pray to IHS and that for which we ought not to pray to IHS. So now how do we distinguish between those sorts of knowledge for which we should pray and those for which we should not pray. Unless I misunderstood, you were defending the thesis that we ought not to pray to Jesus for knowledge about Mary's, well, stuff.

I Googled "saints lottery tickets" and got St Paul of Minnesota so I guess he's it.

THANK YOU!

Okay, acolytes, prepare the blue fire. Bring that goat over here and sharpen this knife.

O Great and Terrible Paul of even greater and more terrible Minnesota: If you will not, of your, like, toadally awesome powers, grant me a winning Mega Millions ticket, how about at least a scratcher, okay? I offer you the beard of this goat! (Phew, smells bad, don't it?)

Okay, you pathetic po' folk, I'm outta here! James, go warm up the Rolls.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled donnybrook.

(re the heresies and Gnocchi, I mean Gnoscticism paragraph) First that comes down to don't trust Him. But second, it's not like what whoever it was was being asked to pray for was a brand-new field of information. We claim, rightly or wrongly, to have a tradition with very early roots and centuries of flowstone and unfolding. And it shouldn't be news that an argument that Scripture has it all isn't a top seller in the Catholic crowd.

So from our POV, there is the "The Bible don't say it, so leave it alone" door and the "The traditions of the Church AND the Bible have between them come up with an extensive bunch o' stuff about Mary" door. And the answer to a prayer, who knows, He's not a TAME Lion, might be an encounter with a new or newly phrased discourse on the question, or a new text, or a new way to look at it. People's ideas and convictions arise in such a multitude of ways. "Feelings" and experiences by no means exhaust the possible answers.

And that will go, I think, to the next paragraph ending "That is Gnosticism."

Why do you need a miracle?

In the Words of Blessed Ronnie of Santa Barbara, "There you [all] go again." Who said anything about NEED? Why does an assertion that there ARE miracles all over the place get treated like a statement of need?

Mary MUST be a virgin; I NEED a miracle ... What is this? I think she IS a virgin still and I think there ARE unnoticed miracles all over the shop. Why did God make the Leviathan (Ps 104)? For kicks, evidently. I don't know why He does miracles. I'm just glad I get to see some of 'em and enjoy them.

Look when the then future Sgt York walked into that Nazarene or whatever it was chapel and gave his life to Jesus, now that there was a miracle. And when he courageously followed where he thought his faith led to claim he had to be a conscientious objector -- miracle again. Such beautiful sincerity comes from God, I think. And when he thought it through and took out all those Huns (including, no doubt relatives of mine, though Grandpop was already in New York) yet another wonderful act of God.

If the sun really did Dance at Fatima, that's cool and it's a great way for God to say, "Listen up, y'all, I really MEAN this." (But neither will they listen if one were to be brought back from the dead.) But when a proud young man admits that he did wrong and says, with the penitence of the blessed and not that of the damned, as Calvin would say,"I did wrong, and I'm sorry," THAT is a miracle.

I don't know. Maybe we ALL need miracles.

[HarleyD]

So that means there are two sorts of knowledge, that for which we can pray to IHS and that for which we ought not to pray to IHS. ...Unless I misunderstood, you were defending the thesis that we ought not to pray to Jesus for knowledge about Mary's, well, stuff.

Why should we pray that God reveals to us something new about Mary? What is written in scripture is written and there isn't a whole lot of information in scripture about Mary.

So from our POV, there is the "The Bible don't say it, so leave it alone" door and the "The traditions of the Church AND the Bible have between them come up with an extensive bunch o' stuff about Mary" door.

Well, I would say the Orthodox have been far more cautious about making changes than the Catholics.

Who said anything about NEED? Why does an assertion that there ARE miracles all over the place get treated like a statement of need?

This was from your post #827:
We believe that God does miracles and we see them all around. We trust Him, and we believe our life is Him teaching us to trust Him more and more.

Unless I misread this paragraph it sounds as if you trust and believe in Him more and more because of all the miracles around you. You seem to confirm this with your statement:
I'm just glad I get to see some of 'em and enjoy them....Look when the then future Sgt York walked into that Nazarene or whatever it was chapel and gave his life to Jesus, now that there was a miracle.... If the sun really did Dance at Fatima, that's cool and it's a great way for God to say, "Listen up, y'all, I really MEAN this."

While miracles do happen, it is dangerous practice to place too much emphasis on them one way or another. They are not the source of faith. In fact, they often created more problems than what they're worth. We see one miracle, we want another. Saul heals a person and immediately do the people assume he Zeus; when he tells them God heal the man they want to stone him.

All I see at Fatima is this nonsense of Mary giving three direct orders. It is rather dangerous practice in my mind of listening to someone who is dead even if she made the sun danced.