Posted on 10/25/2007 9:24:05 AM PDT by NYer
The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy, by the historian Sergio Luzzatto, draws on a document found in the Vatican's archive.
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The document reveals the testimony of a pharmacist who said that the young Padre Pio bought four grams of carbolic acid in 1919.
"I was an admirer of Padre Pio and I met him for the first time on 31 July 1919," wrote Maria De Vito.
She claimed to have spent a month with the priest in the southern town of San Giovanni Rotondo, seeing him often.
"Padre Pio called me to him in complete secrecy and telling me not to tell his fellow brothers, he gave me personally an empty bottle, and asked if I would act as a chauffeur to transport it back from Foggia to San Giovanni Rotondo with four grams of pure carbolic acid.
"He explained that the acid was for disinfecting syringes for injections. He also asked for other things, such as Valda pastilles."
The testimony was originally presented to the Vatican by the Archbishop of Manfredonia, Pasquale Gagliardi, as proof that Padre Pio caused his own stigmata with acid.
It was examined by the Holy See during the beatification process of Padre Pio and apparently dismissed.
Padre Pio, whose real name was Francesco Forgione, died in 1968. He was made a saint in 2002. A recent survey in Italy showed that more people prayed to him than to Jesus or the Virgin Mary. He exhibited stigmata throughout his life, starting in 1911.
The new allegations were greeted with an instant dismissal from his supporters. The Catholic Anti-Defamation League said Mr Luzzatto was a liar and was "spreading anti-Catholic libels".
Pietro Siffi, the president of the League, said: "We would like to remind Mr Luzzatto that according to Catholic doctrine, canonisation carries with it papal infallibility.
"We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."
Except it proves biblical and doctrinal ignorance.
(Sound of orchestra tuning up.
Stirring musical introduction,
here comes the baritone:)
PAT-ripassion
the belief that makes you go insane,
where modalism's sweet,
the explanation's neat,
but the Father's hanging there in pain!
PAT-ripassion
the belief that leads us to deny
The Holy Trinity,
And God's integrity.
What we thought were persons were a lie!
We know the simplicity's grand,
Still we reject it right out of hand.
And when we say
Or sing a kyrie,
We're only saying
God truly is in Three Persons,
Holy Trinity, Okay!
Ahh well. I'll drink all the Guinness you can pour, and you can take all the German water (ummm, "beer") you can stomach.
By your leave, M'am, who called this abomination of a thread an "ecumenical discussion?"
Himself
“...but I never heard of a family attachment to one particular saint.”
Sigh................
Did the Father die on the cross for your sins? Did the father take on human flesh?
The Father is not the Son
The Son is not the Father
The Holy Spirit is not the Son
The Son is not the Holy Spirit
Equal in Essence, Distinct in Roles: Eternal Functional Authority and Submission among the Essentially Equal Divine Persons of the Godhead (MP3), by Bruce Ware
http://www.sbts.edu/MP3/faculty/20061018ware.mp3
CAMPION: By definition, that's mediation. If you can't see that, you're down to denying the meaning of words in the English language.
Prayer to God.
Mediation by God.
Our point of contention is not the prayer; it is to whom the prayer is being addressed and who is doing the mediating.
We are commanded not to pray to anyone other than the Triune God. We are commanded not to seek mediation from anyone other than Christ Jesus, second member of that Triune God.
Anything else is idolatry and worship of the creature instead of the Creator.
Since you’re so free buying rounds, can I have a Guinness with a few ounces of Paddy on the side, bub?
;-o)
I was agreeing with the expected answer of "no", you big galoot!
Well, I SAId I was unworthy .... I really didn’t ever hear of it. I didn’t say it doesn’t exist. What do I know?
Pope Ellwood the Divine.
;-o)
Guinness is nourishing, a veritable meal in a mug. Its good for you. Drink your Guinness and don’t complain! Think of the poor Proddies (or the poor starving children in China) who are deprived of the nectar of the grain.
Nope I do not know what it means, Freep Mail me and explain it ...LOL I am sometimes very slow...
Apparently some wish so strongly to believe Mary was a "co-redeemer" and a "dispenstrix of all grace" that they give to her what rightly belongs only to the Triune God.
As if.
Did anyone in this abominable thread mention that carbolic acid is diluted phenol?
Did anyone mention that phenol was the first disinfectant used in operating rooms by spraying it as a mist? The net effect on mixing with water is to form this powerful disinfectant which was found to prevent postoperative deaths. The downside is that everyone had to wear thick masks and rubber gloves.
Could it be that the young Pio of Pietralcina was simply using this as a disinfectant akin to iodine since he feared his wounds would become infected? Why is the implication that he used the carbolic acid to render wounds in his hands?
Finally, carbolic acid will cause BURNS. Anyone with a phenol burn can attest to that (got one on my hand). Those look a bit different from nail wounds.
Oh, the humanity...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenol
Um, I agree. So where does that put us?
I'm not certain about the father's semen part, although that's an intringuing possibility. But would it mean that a child begotten by some method other than a father's semen would not have original sin?
I'm referring to cloning. and also to the theoretical possibility of human parthenogenesis or using female stem cells to fertilize eggs instead of male semen. So far just a lesbian fantasy, but supposedly this is just around the corner.
BTW the Catholic Church would say all such artificial human reproduction is immoral in any case, but, rathe dreadfully, it doesn't look like we can stop it.
Where's that overweening political power of the Catholic Church when you really need it? (Kinda joking, kinda not.)
Do you adore Mary?
No.
Here is what The Church says about the Most Holy Trinity in the language it was originally said in. I post this not to show that I know how to post foreign letters, but because the West's, especially the Protestant West's abysmal lack of knowledge and understanding of Greek has lead and continues to lead to Trinitarian and Christological heresy.
" Πιστεύω εἰς ἕνα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.
Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων· φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο. Τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς Παρθένου καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα. Σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, καὶ παθόντα καὶ ταφέντα. Καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρα κατὰ τὰς Γραφάς. Καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Πατρός. Καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς, οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.
Καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ κύριον, τὸ ζωοποιόν, τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον, τὸ σὺν Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον, τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν"
Now, where do you get "Equal in Essence" from "ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί"?
This is The Faith of The Church. This is The Faith upon which the universe is established. It behooves all of us to accept and understand it!
Step away from the keyboard and resist the temptation to dump on New Jersey, home of George Washington, Thomas Edison and Albert Einstein just to name a few. ;-)
shalom b'shem Yah'shua
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