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To: restornu; Grig

Your Church should be secure enough in its own belief and faith, that the investigating of history, or the opinion of others shouldn’t interfere.

Excommunication is a way of branding someone as ‘sinful,’ untrustworthy, or dishonest. It is cultic. If that is what Catholics do, then so be it. I would not agree with them either.

BTW, my Church cannot excommunicate someone, and it never does. When an organization is fearful of investigation, then I think that organization has a problem. Of course, you disagree with me...I am an apostate.


55 posted on 09/25/2007 11:33:43 AM PDT by colorcountry (If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you get nonsense! ~ J. Vernon McGee)
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To: colorcountry; Grig

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Main article: Disciplinary council
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (”LDS Church”; see also Mormon) practices excommunication (as well as the lesser sanctions of private counsel and caution, informal probation, formal probation, and disfellowshipment) as penalties for those who commit serious sins.

According to the Church Handbook of Instructions, The purposes of Church discipline are (1) to save the souls of transgressors, (2) to protect the innocent, and (3) to safeguard the purity, integrity, and good name of the Church. Excommunication is generally reserved for what are seen as the most serious sins, including committing serious crimes; committing adultery, polygamy, or homosexual conduct; apostasy, teaching false doctrines, or openly criticizing LDS leaders. In most cases, excommunication is a last resort, used only after repeated warnings. A recent (2006) revision to the Church Handbook of Instructions states that joining another church is also an excommunicable offense, however merely attending another church does not constitute “apostasy”.

As a lesser penalty, Latter-day Saints may be disfellowshipped, which does not include a loss of church membership. Once disfellowshipped, persons may not take the sacrament or enter LDS temples, nor may they participate actively in (as opposed to merely attending and listening to) other church meetings, though disfellowshipped persons may attend most LDS functions and are permitted to wear temple garments. For lesser sins, or in cases where the sinner appears truly repentant, individuals may be put on probation for a time, which means that further sin will result in disfellowshipment or excommunication.

The decision to excommunicate a Melchizedek Priesthood holder is generally the province of the leadership of a Stake, which consists of several local wards. Excommunications occur only after a formal “church disciplinary council” (what was once called a “church court;” the change was apparently meant to avoid talking about guilt and instead focus on repentance).

The procedure followed by a church disciplinary council is described in church handbooks and the Doctrine and Covenants 102:9-18. For a regular member, the bishop (leader of the ward) determines whether excommunication is needed. He does this in consultation with his two counselors, but there is no vote: the bishop makes the determination in a spirit of prayer. That decision is appealable to the stake leadership.

A Melchizedek Priesthood holder, however, starts at the stake level. There, the stake presidency and Stake High Council handle matters. Six of the twelve members of the high council are assigned to represent the member in question to “prevent insult or injustice.” The member is invited to attend, but the council can go forward without him. Again, the members of the high council consult with the stake president, but the decision about which discipline is necessary is the stake president’s alone. Officially, it is possible to appeal this decision to the Church’s world leaders.

Considerations used in what form of discipline to use follows the following factors, listed in order from those that suggest a stern dicispline, to those that suggest a more lenient discipline:

1. Violation of Covenants: Covenants are made in conjunction with specific ordinances in the LDS Church. Covenants that might be broken, are usually those surrounding marriage covenants, temple covenants, priesthood covenants, etc.
2. Position of Trust or Authority: Area of responsibility factor into discipline. Leaders in the church have important responsibilities, and the same action committed by a member of the congregation may not result in as severe a discipline as a leader might receive.
3. Repetition: Repetition of a sin is more severe than a single instance.
4. Magnitude: How often, how many individuals were impacted, and who knows all play a part.
5. Age, Maturity, and Experience: Those who are young in age, or immature in their understanding are afforded leniency.
6. Interests of the Innocent: How the discipline will impact family members may be considered.
7. Time between Transgression and Confession: If the sin was committed in distant past, and there has not been repetition, leniency may considered.
8. Voluntary Confession: Did the person voluntarily come forward, or were they caught in the act.
9. Evidence of Repentance: Sorrow for sin, and demonstrated commitment to repentance, as well as faith in Christ all play a role in determining the severity of discipline.

Those who are excommunicated lose their church membership and the right to partake of the sacrament. Notices of excommunication may be made public—especially in cases of apostasy, where members could be misled—but the specific reasons for individual excommunications are typically kept confidential and are seldom made public.

Persons who have been excommunicated are welcome and encouraged to attend church meetings, but cannot participate in the meetings: offer prayers for the congregation, give talks, etc., cannot enter LDS temples, or wear temple garments. Excommunicated members may be re-baptized after a waiting period and sincere repentance, as judged by a series of interviews with church leaders.


58 posted on 09/25/2007 12:07:21 PM PDT by restornu (No one is perfect but you can always strive to do the right thing! Press Forward Mitt!)
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To: colorcountry

It is absurd for someone of his background to claim he knew nothing of it before, except as a way to sucker ignorant people into thinking this was something the church covers up. Nor would going around saying ‘Hey, did you know Joseph Smith practiced polygamy?’ be grounds for excommunication. Like I said before, his story doesn’t pass the smell test, not by a mile.

Go and read 1 Cor 5, Paul tells the saints there to excommunicate a member for marrying his step-mother (’Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. v13). Paul made it clear that he didn’t want that person’s presence to be a corrupting influence on other members. Are you going to call that cultic too?

It isn’t about being ‘fearful of investigation’ it is about upholding standards. If your church (care to actually say which one it is?) has no standards that members must adhere to that is it’s own business. I can certainly see why Satan would have no need to send a wolf in sheep’s clothing into a congregation of wolves though.

Also, excommunication is a merciful act. When a person is baptized they make a covenant with God. If later on they have no intention of keeping their part of it, it is better for them to be released from that obligation than to continue violating the covenant they made. If they then repent, they can be baptized once again, starting over fresh.


60 posted on 09/25/2007 12:29:34 PM PDT by Grig
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To: colorcountry
Excommunication is a way of branding someone as ‘sinful,’ untrustworthy, or dishonest.

So adultery or murder is not cause for excommunication from a church? Because they will be labeled as sinners? Hmmm. So you would have problems with the National Association of Evangelicals, an umbrella group representing more than 45,000 churches with 30 million members. Also, New Life Church, where Haggard was the pastor (he started the church in his basement.)

I Corinthians 5:4-5 says, "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." The purpose of excommunication is to save the person from his uncleanness that is destroying his communion with God and others in the fellowship. Therefore, if he can still be saved, that person is not completely cut off from God. Bible Tools.org

And from Church discipline

Question: "What does the Bible say about church discipline / excommunication?"

Answer: Excommunication is the formal removal of an individual from church membership roles and the informal separation of company from that individual. Matthew 18:15-20 gives the procedure and authority for a church to do this. It instructs us that one individual (usually the offended party) is to go to the offending individual. If he/she does not repent, then two or three go to confirm the situation and the refusal to repent. If there is still no repentance, it is taken before the church. This process is never "desirable," just as a parent never delights in having to discipline his/her children. Often, though, it is necessary. The purpose is not to be mean spirited or to display a "holier than thou" attitude. Rather, it is to be done in love toward the individual, in obedience and honor to God, and in godly fear for the sake of others in the church.

The Bible gives an example of the necessity of excommunication in a local church, the church at the city of Corinth (1 Corinthians 5:1-13). In this passage, the apostle Paul also gives some purposes behind the biblical use of excommunication. One reason (not directly found in the passage) is for the sake of the testimony of Christ Jesus (and His church) before the unbelievers. When David had sinned with Bathsheba, one of the consequences of his sin that God mentions is that the name of the one true God will be blasphemed by God's enemies (2 Samuel 12:14). A second reason is that sin is like a cancer; if allowed to exist, it spreads to those nearby just as a little yeast leavens a whole loaf of bread (1 Corinthians 5:6-7). Also, Paul explains that Jesus saved us so that we might be set apart from sin, that we might be "unleavened" or free from that which decays spiritually (1 Corinthians 5:7-8). Christ's desire for His bride, the Church, is that she might be pure and undefiled (Ephesians 5:25-27). Excommunication is also for the long-term welfare of the one being disciplined by the church. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 5:5, states that excommunication is a way of delivering "such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." This means that excommunication can somehow involve God using Satan (or one of his demons) as a disciplinary tool to work in the sinner's life physically to bring about true repentance in his/her heart.

Sometimes the disciplinary action of the church is successful in bringing about godly sorrow and true repentance. When this occurs, the individual is able to be restored to fellowship. The individual involved in the 1 Corinthians 5 passage repented, and Paul encouraged the church to restore him to fellowship with the church (2 Corinthians 2:5-8). Unfortunately, the disciplinary action, even when done in love and in the correct manner, is not always successful in bringing about such restoration, but is still needed to accomplish the other good purposes mentioned above.

We have all likely witnessed the behavior of a child who has been allowed to do as he/she pleases with no or very little consistent discipline. It is not a pretty sight! Nor is such parenting loving for it dooms the child to a dismal future. Such behavior will keep the child from forming meaningful relationships and performing well in any kind of a setting, whether socially or in an occupation. In a like manner, discipline in the church setting, while neither enjoyable nor easy, is not only necessary, but loving as well. Moreover, it is commanded by God.

Matthew 18:15-17 says:
15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


105 posted on 09/26/2007 6:52:09 PM PDT by Utah Girl
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