He did NOT have sex with that woman!
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Locked on 10/23/2007 9:08:44 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
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Posted on 09/24/2007 8:16:13 AM PDT by colorcountry
He did NOT have sex with that woman!
It's very ckear to me. When smith was caught screwing the wives of other men, he had to come uo with some excuse. It's really pretty simple.
Hi Color, don’t have time to play, just popping in to the end of this thread and saw that someone should defend God’s ancient servants and prophets whom you call adulterers, in order to meet your definition... There are many, I will just do Abraham, since you bring him up specifically as an “adulterer”
Abraham was God’s prophet, yes PROPHET. He had 3 wives, Sarah, Hagar and Keturah. (BTW, moses’s fist wife, Zipporah, was through Abraham’s third wife, Keturah)
The lord speaking in a dream to the King OF Egypt, says specifically that Abraham was His prophet, and that Abraham would pray for him and bless his house.
Incidentally, verse 12 of this same passage also speaks of Abraham’s father also having multiple wives. Sarah was not only his wife, but also his half sister, he never lied about that to the King.
Gen. 20
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man’s wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
The following chapter is where Issac is born and Haggar leaves with her son Ishmael.
btw, I will not be able to 'back and forth with you', no time, I can't catch up on my posts for several more days. Someone else will have to do the honors.
For that I apologize... you will have to consider this a "hit and run".
Good day all.
Abraham was an adulterer. God gave him a promise of a son, and yet Sarah, who doubted, took matters into her own hands and offered up Hagar as a ‘surrogate’ mother for Abraham’s son. This wasn’t God’s plan at all, and we see what happened as a result....the nation of Islam.
Abraham sinned, he was not perfect. His righteousness was credited to him because of his FAITH and not works. Each man, indeed even prophets, fail and sin. There is no one righteous not ONE. Even Abraham, but his faith MADE him righteous.
The New Testament pays great tribute to Abraham, the man of faith. His name appears 30 times in the gospels, 8 times in Acts (5 in one sermon), and 32 times in the epistles. When a New Testament writer wanted to teach a lesson on the nature of or importance of faith, Abraham was the model. When Paul taught about the righteousness which exists through faith, Abraham was the model (Rom. 4). When Paul taught that all people became the heirs of God’s promises through faith, Abraham was the foundation of the lessons (Gal. 3). In Hebrews’ roll call of the people of faith, one section pays tribute to Abraham’s sojourning and another to his offering of Isaac (Heb. 11). When James taught that obedient works were the natural expression of a living faith, Abraham’s faith was a primary evidence (Jas. 2).
When the Christian properly understands Abraham’s faith which was reckoned for righteousness, he will understand the faith which will allow him to be righteous before God.
Keep reading, chapter 21:
17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. I will make him a great nation.
It might seem politically correct for you to judge the actions of one nation born out of the seed of Abraham, but you are not in a position to play God. The Muslims didn't come into existence until the 5th or 6th century after Christ. The children of Abraham through Ishmael are indeed a great nation, and was part of his plan.
The lord sent his angel to help and support Hagar. This is not the things of man.
Also, in Chapter 16, the angel of the Lord tells Hagar to return to Sarai and Abraham after Sarai chases her off, and the angel tells her she is with child, and will bear a son and call him Ishmael.
Pretty amazing happenings from angels and God to the adulterer mistress and seed of an adulterer!!!
Further, in Chapter 17 of Genises, the Lord Himself promises Abraham that Ishmael would begat 12 prices, and would become a great nation.
Gen. 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
The promises to Abraham was that the whole earth would be blessed with his posterity, not just the chosen people through Issac. The fact that multiple wives were a factor in making this happen does not diminish my respect for the prophets of old. I'm truly sorry that it does to you.
The fact cannot be ignored that the nations of the earth were peopled through Abraham, Issac and Jacob, as well as Ishmael and Abraham's other seed, all using multiple wives to make it happen.
Now, I really must go. Perhaps another time!
You are great at fudging facts.
Sarah was DEAD when Abraham married Keturah.
You just ignore that silly little truth in order to spread your misinformation.
It was Sarah’s idea to have her maiden sleep with Abraham to produce and heir. Nowhere does it say it was from God.
Sarah was trying to ‘help’ God, she had lost faith that she would ever conceive. And we all know what has come of that ‘help’.
Thanks for your post.
It has nothing to do with the fact that Abraham sinned with Hagar. Technically speaking however, the Ten Commandments had not been issued at the time.
What does that have to do with the fornicating, lust and power driven, Joseph Smith.
On another topic, one ex-LDS poster on another board discussing this very issue, had this to say:
“I’d like to throw in a comment on “discovering the history.” It’s not that there’s bad history. As was pointed out, every religion has bad history. What hurts and is demeaning is to discover that your religion, the people you trusted to “do the thinking for you” have lied to you. It is deeply personal and, frankly, feels terrible. You feel violated in the same way you would if you were molested. These people took advantage of your confidence and used you— used your time, your money, your power to bolster themselves. It is quite obvious the church has no integrity, no commitment to the principles that Jesus Christ taught. There is no humility, no confession of wrongdoing, EVER. Only speaking for myself, I felt I had to choose between a life of deception for the Church or a life of integrity. I chose the latter and praise God every day that I was lead out of Mormonism by freely reading the Bible. Pretend you are a sandal-wearing Jew, I thought, and that you didn’t know why Jesus was so popular. What does this guy have to say? I started with Matthew and by the end of Mark I realized that Jesus certainly wasn’t describing Mormonism. In fact, Mormonism is close to the Old Testament religion Jesus was doing away with. Mormonism “restores” the old spirit-crushing, unloving and cruel Old Testament Judaism that Jesus despised. “
http://www.topix.com/religion/latter-day-saints/2007/09/why-they-leave/
You are presumptuous. You cannot read my heart and determine when and where I fall short of God’s example, tantiboth. You can not see as He does.
I find it is much easier to follow simply what Jesus taught.
“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: / But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
Uh... where is THIS found?
The answer is:
Matthew 5:27-28
27. "You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.'
28. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Genesis 121. The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.
2. "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
3. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."
4. So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran.
5. He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Haran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.
6. Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land.
7. The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.
8. From there he went on toward the hills east of Bethel and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he built an altar to the LORD and called on the name of the LORD.
9. Then Abram set out and continued toward the Negev.
10. Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe.
11. As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are.
12. When the Egyptians see you, they will say, `This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live.
13. Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you."
14. When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that she was a very beautiful woman.
15. And when Pharaoh's officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace.
16. He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, menservants and maidservants, and camels.
17. But the LORD inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of Abram's wife Sarai.
18. So Pharaoh summoned Abram. "What have you done to me?" he said. "Why didn't you tell me she was your wife?
19. Why did you say, `She is my sister,' so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife. Take her and go!"
20. Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had.
Sorry; not a wife but Sari's servant.
Dang!!!
He did it AGAIN!!!
But...
But - what about his WORKS???
Don't THEY count for anything??
--MormonDude(Workin' my way back to you, Babe)
True, but SIN was still in the land!
Great minds...
Thanks, Elsie!
Correct. He sinned.
I don’t understand why sevenbak is so adamant about Abraham not sinning. Mormons defend the “right” of their Prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to be sinful....don’t they?
Don’t we hear from them over, and over again that their Prophets are ‘only’ men and sometimes speak as men with fallen ideas and lusts? Aren’t we told that when Brigham Young spoke the Adam/God doctrine that he was just espousing erroneous beliefs.
So are Prophets fallible as men, or not? not? What say ye seven?
It has nothing to do with the fact that Abraham sinned with Hagar.
Technically speaking however, the Ten Commandments had not been issued at the time.
FOTFLMHO
Lets just ignore about dispensations!
Unbelievable Hillary could take lesson....
The question then becomes, if there is no sexual intimacy in the relationship, is it adultery?
The answer is:
Matthew 5:27-28
27. “You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.’
28. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
****
isn’t this again speculation?
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