Justification: Agreement in 1541 between Catholics and Protestants on Justification

Mandate: The Newsletter of the Prayer Book Society ^ | July/August 2007 | Dr. Tory Lane

[AnalogReigns]

A long read, but VERY intersting, none the less. Emphasizes what a tradgedy Trent really was, and how, when those Church leaders who really know and believe in the scriptures put their heads together in council, Holy Spirit-led agreement results.

[AnalogReigns]

Anglican List Ping! (Another good one from the Prayer Book Society...)

[AnalogReigns]

GRPL ping! Historic attempt at biblically-true ecumenicism.... (Printed by the very theologically conservative Anglican Prayer Book Society)

[TalonDJ]

ping for later

[AnalogReigns]

for the Catholic/Pro-life ping list, of historic interest....

(A very early Roman Catholic/Protestant agreement on a critical issue of contention)

Yes, while I personally sincerly confess it may be the pot calling the kettle black, FLAMING highly discouraged here....

[dangus]

The author says that had the Council of Trent been based in Greek instead of Latin, many of the misunderstandings that perpetuated the schisms would have been resolved. Does he mean to imply that the Catholic Church’s conclusions at Trent contradicted these, or that by using Latin instead of Greek, the Church made herself less understood by Protestants?

[badpacifist]

the Church made herself less understood by Protestants?

rofl Understatement of the centuries...

[WKB]

Baptist ping

[sittnick]

The various extant Greek manuscripts available in the 16th century disagreed with each other. The Latin Vulgate was translated at a time when better manuscripts were available. It is a presumption on the part of the author that reading in Greek rather than in Latin made a difference in the decision making. The eastern Church, which never used Latin, did not buy into the Luther/Calvin approach.

[Natural Law]

They both got it wrong. The problem with this is that Christ's message was simple. You don't need priests; do good things to one another and the Kingdom of Heaven will be yours.

Christ's message was not about nuance and legal hairsplitting, nor about which council or educated poobah should man the turnstiles and tollbooths of Heaven. God alone, not men and churches, decipher what is in a mans heart and soul.

[nmh]

Eph. 2:5-9

[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I really believe GOD has it right and man who disagrees with GOD; has a self serving agenda ... .

[RobbyS]

I don’t think Luther accepted it.

[sittnick]

Emphasizes what a tradgedy Trent really was, and how, when those Church leaders who really know and believe in the scriptures put their heads together in council, Holy Spirit-led agreement results.

There is a reason why Christ built his Church on Simon Peter, who would become the rock. The Fathers at the Council of Trent are successors to the Apostles, this group of people was not. That is how we know what the authoritative understanding of Scripture is, the voice that calls through the narrow gate, and not the legions of variations spawned by the myriad of Protestant sects over the last 500 years is the voice of truth.

I normally don't take this tone, as this is essentially a political board, and Evangelical Christians, conservative Anglicans and Lutherans and Catholics can be on the same side of so much.

BUT, if you insist on calling one of the greatest Councils a tragedy, don't be surprised when you find your false presumptions based on a misunderstanding of the teachings of Christ and Luther's own purposeful mistranslation (he added the word "alone", when it was in neither the Greek nor the Latin, because "he would have it so") are challenged.

[Natural Law]

What is most perplexing is that the argument between the Protestants and Catholics came down to the deciphering understandings of the 29 books that the Catholic Church decided would compromise the New Testament. Had the Protestants attempted to revisit and revise Canon and examining the many other works contemporary to the 29 chosen the argument might have been more about the message of God and less about political power.

[nmh]

“I don’t think Luther accepted it.”

Luther accepted it. That was a burning issue amongst others with him.

[WKB]

Emphasizes what a tradgedy Trent really was,<.P .

Why bring Senator Lott into this? :>) JK

[Verginius Rufus]

Henry VIII died in 1547. I don't think any openly Protestant doctrines were accepted by the Church of England until the reign of Edward VI.

The doctrine of justification was just one of a number of disagreements between Catholics and Protestants, and the animosity between the sides was so intense that I don't think there was any chance of reconciliation by the time the Council of Trent began its deliberations.

[nmh]

Christ did not establish the “church” on Peter, another sinner.

It is a tragedy that the Catholic church didn’t acknowledge the obvious:

Eph. 2:5-9

[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I really believe GOD has it right and man who disagrees with GOD; has a self serving agenda ... . It’s best to listen to God and not other sinners ... .

[usurper]

I completely agree with your assessment.

[sittnick]

Well, here we are in the middle of a discussion about Latin and Greek causing divisions, and you pull out one of many English translations.

You have no authority in any event to give your interpretation of a translation of a translation of a copy of a small fragment any more weight than anybody else.

Since I do not belong to the Church of nmh, and since neither Christ nor Scripture itself says sola scriptura, I will go with the unbroken teaching of the Christ passed down through His Apostles and their successors, rather than nmh or what might well-have been the 16th century equivalent of Catholics for a Free Choice. The only tragedy of the Council of Trent is that it was about 50 years too late.