Posted on 08/12/2007 7:03:32 AM PDT by Ottofire
I think Paul was just bestowing gratitude to a generous host, using his typically-inspired prose and courtesy.
I don’t know enough about RCC theology to even wade into that battle.
Bless you a thousand times! I scarcely know enough to try to defend it, but it is very nice to read when a brother says he’d like to find out what’s wrong with it before he attacks it.
Why thank you. May He bless and keep you and yours.
I noticed a reference to the “Apocryphal” book of Maccabees (I think there are two books). I have an Oxford Bible, but have only read the Daniel-era non-canonized books. Great literature, Divine or not.
For just reading purposes, I love Tobit.
Would love to scout out Judith. Tough read.
If you have a couple bucks laying around, try the “Gnostic Gospels” - Thomas, Mary, etc.
Um...what were you reading?
I am not a supporter of the apostate Roman Church, thanks. And my good works will only be judged after all the dust is settled in glory, and has nothing to do with my salvation. My good works are all that will be left after the fire, not a sign that I must be purged from the residue of sin, something which I cannot find in the bible at all...
I am not a supporter of the apostate Roman Church, thanks.
Cool! Me neither! I'm a Catholic.
There. Fixed it!
;-)
I read a lot of that gnostic stuff back in seminary days. Its primary effect on me was to lead me to praise the Holy Spirit in His guidance of the Church as she decided what books to canonize. They're fun. I'm partial to the acts of Pilate, but when compared to the real deal ....
Where do you make the leap of logic to infer that Onesiphorus was dead? Sounds like Paul was just praying for the Lord’s blessing over his family, since he was a good friend. Then to extrapolate a Purgatory doctrine? oh brother.
They died under the Abrahamic covenant. When Christ died, He descended to the grave (Sheol) and led captivity captive, freeing them. This is not a big mystery.
Not sure what you are talking about in your post all Im saying is you have to quit caring what some organisation brings from out of the depths of their own doctrine, and you must look to SCRIPTURE and SCRIPTURE only!!!!!! There is no purgatory or second chance!!!!!! Absolutly nowhere is that teaching in scripture!!!! but what is, is Christ said that those who do not believe who I say I am you shall surely DIE IN YOUR SINS!!!!!! better not forget that one!!!!! He also said after death was the JUDGEMENT, NOT a second chance not purgatory (which was made up by church dogma) SCRIPTURE and SCRIPTURE ONLY!!!!!!
They sleep in the grave (sheol) awaiting resurrection:
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Mary is no one to be recognised but only for the fact that she was chosen as the one to give birth to Christ our savior, she was NOT sinless, nor was Rahab, nor was anyone in the line of Christ, Mary does not save you protect you nor does she endow gifts to you, she is to be honored but not looked to in any way shape or form for salvation, that kind of doctrine is purly made up by men!!!!!! Mary herself would tell you to quit crossing yourself and start weeping on your knees!!!!! Mary herself would tell you to quit saying all these hail Marys and realise it is Christ and Christ ALONE!!!!! YOU are NOT going to save yourself with rituals!!!!!! Believing in Christ is OBEYING CHRIST!!!!!!! THIS means forsake-—— FORNICATION-—ADULTERY-—— COVETOUSNESS——— GREED—— LUSTS OF ALL SORTS-—— SETTING BAD EXAMPLES -—— etc...etc..etc... Do you think you can do what you want and then say a few hail marys and cross oneself and then think you are all good!!!!! Salvation is of no PRIVATE interpretation!!!! Christ said those who LOVE me and Those who believe in me are those who KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS!!!!!!! Peace!!!!
well maybe Im wrong but I think some think of purgatory as a second chance place, where thay can do what they want here on earth but they think they are good enough to be saved and if there was some things they indulged in well purgatory will take care of it, you asee that is a round about way of thinking it as a second chance.
Second of all Im not here to bash Catholics, I believe many are honest and they are still on the overall side of Christ which makes them on ourside, we can be in eror in many things even us as protestants, but we should all take on the mentality that we must look to scripture and not traditions and mens doctrines, to draw nearer to our Lord Jesus Christ, we should be willing to work together as the one unity of all those who acknowledge Christ as the one and only savior and then work out the differences as brothers and sisters IN CHRIST!!!!! Remember when Christ said those who are not against us are for us!!!!! Never the less ottofire well said my Brother or Sister whichever you are in Christ!!!! Peace!!!!
Purgatory is not a “second chance.” The very name means a place of purgation. The person there is already “saved’. Another way of looking at it is as a place of reconciliation, where we meet God with full knowledge now of how we have offended him. We are the prodigal son. Think how he burned with shame as he approached the Father.
Whenever a Protestant insists that something is true "according to Rome," make it a point to say, "and your source is ... ???".
You'll usually discover that they're talking out of their hat.
I'm aware of no passage in the catechism, in Ott's Fundamentals, or in any other Catholic source I know of which asserts what this author claims to know "according to Rome".
The custom of prayer for the dead goes back to Jewish practice, long before Christ. Nothing "medieval" about it.
It was practiced by the early Christians.
It is practiced today by all Christians except Protestants.
Prayer for the dead presupposes that there is a state or condition in which our prayers can help them. That cannot be heaven (where they don't need our help), and it cannot be hell (where we can't help them).
That isn't what Catholics believe at all.
Only the saved go to purgatory.
There is no "second chance".
As a matter of fact, that is NOT all you are saying. What you actually wrote included:
... there is no second chance nonsense ...Now, the teaching about purgatory has nothing whatsoever to do with any idea of any kind that after death you get a second chance. So,
- If you are hijacking the thread, why?
- But if you are arguing against something we do not teach, with whom are you arguing? We agree there is no second chance.
So that's what I was saying. Instead of making an argument, you say some need to stop fooling themselves. Fine. Let's start with knowing what the doctrine we're condemning is. If you think you know what we teach when you don't who is fooling himself? If somebody comes up to me and tells me I'm fooling myself because I believe such-and-such when I do NOT believe such-and-such, what am I to think or to do? How can I proceed
When I look at Scripture I find: Who is this that darkens counsel with words without knowledge? - Isaiah 24
And allow me to suggest that exclamation points and capital letters do not make an effective substitute for thoughtful discussion or a smidgen of research and are not persuasive.
So when you go on to characterize the body of Christ as "some organization" and the guidance of the Holy Spirit as "brings out of the depth of their own doctrine", you've already made it seem like, well, like it's going to be hard to reach the point where was can actually converse. I see no interest in knowing what we think and consequently no ability to criticize it.
Kindly excuse the bluntness. You began the exchange by suggesting that those who believe something that you don't believe are fooling themselves. Maybe it's time for a do-over, huh?
Did you read the article? It was an argument AGAINST purgatory.
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