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To: Alex Murphy

So here’s his position on the subject (toward the end of the article):

“When we’re outside of God’s grace—when we’ve chosen to be Fallen Independent Types—we have free will, because we’ve then placed ourselves outside of God’s purview. But when we’re with God—when we’ve surrendered ourselves to the reality of God’s presence within us—then we don’t have free will, because then our will is subsumed by the larger will of God.”

That seems to make sense.


3 posted on 07/30/2007 10:36:24 AM PDT by Joann37
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To: Joann37

God is infallible. God’s actions are infallible. God created Man. Man is thus a product of an infallible force, which then implies that Man cannot err, because he was created by a perfect perfectionist. Even given free will, Man must still be able to make the right choices, because even his thinking mechanism is a product of an infallible force.

If the end of the above doesn’t hold true, then why should the beginning?


8 posted on 07/30/2007 11:26:54 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: Joann37

When we are outside of the grace of God, we are a slave to sin. When we are restored to the grace of God, we become a slave to God. Which condition is “free will”?

“Free will” does not mean the ability to surprise God. Nor does it mean that our impulses are random; all things have a first cause, and our impulses are not mere byproducts of quantum chaos.

“Free” means living according to one’s own attributes, rather than having them imposed from outside, which is “oppression.” When we are in a state of grace, we do what our reason and conscience demands we must, and our reason and conscience are truth. That, then, is free will. When we are outside of grace, we are in a state of turmoil, desiring on one level to do what we ought to, but lacking the self-control or the awareness to do what is truly fulfilling; we are enslaved to our passions or to ignorance.

When we live, as Paul put it, “under the law,” we have impaired wills and defective reason. When we are saved, we have free will and enlightened reason.

Calvin saw things opposite. He saw “free will” as doing whatever we want, as damned people, as opposed to living as a slave to Christ.


9 posted on 07/30/2007 11:47:51 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Joann37
But when we’re with God—when we’ve surrendered ourselves to the reality of God’s presence within us—then we don’t have free will, because then our will is subsumed by the larger will of God.”

Then if we don't have "free will" after surrendering, why is it that we still choose to sin?

16 posted on 07/30/2007 10:04:40 PM PDT by uptoolate (How can a Holy, Righteous, and Just God NOT kill me for what I said, thought and did yesterday)
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