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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...
Ugh... <

What ran though my head as I read this was that it is a great list of marketing tips. Years ago, I had marketing company which was linked to a very successful international company where I taught people how to better market themselves, mostly through networking, getting other people from other types of business to bring you business while you do the same for them.

The suggestions here were much like what the things we taught as successful ways to influence other people to do what you want them to do. The reason they work is based on pride. People will do more things for simple recognition than for money. Want to increase your small business from referrals? Don't pay for referrals, but put up a plaque in your waiting room listing the top 5 people who gave you referrals. This works well for professional practices, Dr's, lawyers, etc. Human nature is such that people will jump through lots of hoops for their 10 seconds of fame. For recognition. For pride. It is one of the best motivators.

As I went through the list, it was very easy to spot those things where recognition was the key motivator. Other good marketing or sales techniques to get people to "buy what you are selling" are emotional responses (which include fear of loss) and overcoming their objections. Almost every suggestion in the list fit into one or more of those categories:

Emotional motiviations - #'s; 1, 4, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 18, 19, 21, 23, 29, 34, 35, 36, 37, 39, and maybe 27 and 33.

Recognition - #'s: 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 20, 22, 24, 29, 31, 32, 33, 34, 37, 39.

Overcoming objections - #'s: 3, 18, 25, 30, 40.

Baptism is not a party. It is not an emotional high. Why did he come up with these? I suspect it is because he can boost his baptism numbers (and teach others to do the same). To what real "purpose" - to make Warren look successful. But true baptisms are of God. He doesn't need marketing to "boost" His numbers.

Bottom line - why try to "help out" the Holy Spirit? Especially when it is made into an emotional affair? Why does Gode need help from lowly man in convicting people to be baptized? Why did people flock to John to be baptized? Not because he videotaped them and made things all warm and fuzzy, but because he preached repentance. Quite the opposite of warm and fuzzy and "look at me".

8 posted on 07/26/2007 5:51:09 AM PDT by lupie
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To: lupie
Yeah. My list would be:

1. Because Jesus said to get baptized.

If that one isn't enough... then you probably shouldn't get baptized; you should get saved.

Then get baptized.

9 posted on 07/26/2007 6:00:43 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: lupie
Many churches neglect baptism or take it casually. Many others let their preacher use it as a measure of their success in persuading people to accept their process-based spirituality, racking up baptism numbers.

I think any person who knows scripture and is brought to a genuine faith by God's supernatural power will seek out baptism at the first opportunity. And it's not a stadium sport to be staged for a crowd. Nor does it require a clergyman to "officiate" though that is normal if you have a local clergyman you like.

The ordinances of the church should be recognized and celebrated by the universal priesthood of all believers, not just those with degrees in theology and counseling. John the Baptist didn't attend seminary and he was good enough to baptize Christ, it seems.

My own nitpick with other Baptists on baptism is the fetish some have with the symbolism of being "laid back" as though that somehow gives a greater connection with Christ's own baptism or with burial. I also don't like those fishtanks they put in churches for baptisms, sometimes with glass walls so you can watch the baptism from your pew. It's just weird, like a theater setting.

The great merit of baptism, to me, is that it is simple obedience to Christ's command to believe and be baptized. Many claim to believe but are never baptized. I find it suspicious. If they truly believe and wish to obey Christ, why not allow themselves to be immersed in the name of the Trinity? Such a simple thing and yet you see people who attend church for decades and have never yet obeyed their Savior's simple and foremost command, given repeatedly in scripture when the people, under conviction of the Spirit, asked what they must do to be saved.

Baptism is not a party. It is not an emotional high. Why did he come up with these? I suspect it is because he can boost his baptism numbers (and teach others to do the same). To what real "purpose" - to make Warren look successful. But true baptisms are of God. He doesn't need marketing to "boost" His numbers.

I think the waterslide thing is a great idea for Warrenism. A day of fun and recreation for the whole family and take care of that pesky little baptism thing at the same time!
14 posted on 07/26/2007 6:15:35 AM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudy: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: lupie
I read the first two & quit.

But true baptisms are of God. For sure.

17 posted on 07/26/2007 7:12:31 AM PDT by Dahlseide (TULIP)
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