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To: Forest Keeper
the above is my estimation of the result of the Roman Catholic faith

Which is wrong. Sin, God's grace and love are no different from what you experience. If God is not "perfectly still" for you, why would you assume the Catholic experience is different?

Maybe because you separate 'subjective' free will from actual free will? And because you believe that God is different for the elect and reprobate?

God's grace and love and the pain of sin are the same for all humans. This is our theology. God does not hide or change dependent on the individual.This is our theology.

You can experience this the same as everyone else. It's only if you don't trust this - if you think it's subjective, illusionary, "percieved free will" as I believe you put it, then you can start believing that God depends on your theology.

And you can get lost in it, separating what you truly experience from how your theology says it actually is "from God's POV".

You can start living your experience distantly, on the layer of your theology. And the experience of God becomes more distant, removed, foreign, to you.

Like cooking from a recipe in a foreign language.

IMHO. FWIW.

9,998 posted on 10/27/2007 9:35:58 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; Kolokotronis
Sin, God's grace and love are no different from what you experience. If God is not "perfectly still" for you, why would you assume the Catholic experience is different?

I don't assume the experience is any different between us, I champion that it is the same! :) This is one of my biggest disagreements with Catholic theology. It is one of the biggest problems I personally have had in discussing free will with Catholics. I say that the free will experience is the same for all, but that God is ultimately in full control. Then I really catch it because "free will really isn't free if God is in full control". So, I can't win. :)

I say that God's will and plan always trumps man's will and plan. Using other language (to me) I always run into disagreement over this.

Maybe because you separate 'subjective' free will from actual free will? And because you believe that God is different for the elect and reprobate?

If I am following you, I would say that I MERGE subjective free will with actual free will. When I speak against "free will" it is in the sense that most people are using the term in the conversation. OTOH, I also say that we make a "free will" decision to accept Christ. Now, this decision is made with the brand new heart that we have been given by God, and God knows that the result is going to be that all of His brand new hearts always choose Him. Nevertheless, the experience of the person is to make a decision FOR God. No arm-twisting, no force. So in that sense I think subjective free will and actual free will are the same.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by God being different for the elect and the reprobate, so I will agree to that God loves the former, but not the latter. Also, that Christ died for the former, but not the latter. I suppose that is different. :) So, yes I think that the experiences of the elect and the reprobate are very different. One is given saving grace and one is not. But I would put you and me in the same group, so our experiences should be the same. :)

God does not hide or change dependent on the individual. This is our theology.

While I certainly agree that God changes for no one, I think the Bible is clear that God does "hide" from very certain individuals:

Deut 31:17-18 : 17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' 18 And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

Jer 33:4-5 : 4 For this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says about the houses in this city and the royal palaces of Judah that have been torn down to be used against the siege ramps and the sword 5 in the fight with the Babylonians: 'They will be filled with the dead bodies of the men I will slay in my anger and wrath. I will hide my face from this city because of all its wickedness.

Don't these seem to say that God treats people differently based on the situation?

You can experience this the same as everyone else. It's only if you don't trust this - if you think it's subjective, illusionary, "perceived free will" as I believe you put it, then you can start believing that God depends on your theology. And you can get lost in it, separating what you truly experience from how your theology says it actually is "from God's POV".

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to trust. :) I don't think our experience is illusionary at all. It is all the reality we know. So, I am fine with accepting it at that level. Without contrasting to anyone else, I don't need to understand all of God's workings behind the scenes for things to be real for me. We all see the workings of God's hands with our own eyes, yet who can explain them all? That makes our experiences no less real.

10,084 posted on 10/29/2007 11:28:35 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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