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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; blue-duncan; Alamo-Girl; wmfights; irishtenor; suzyjaruki; ...
That takes us back to the robotoic "elect" who simply go through the motions because God ordained it so.

Let's try to keep this straight. The elect will not be robotic in faith. The elect will not simply "go through the motions because God ordained it."

The elect, every member of God's family chosen from all nations and races who have been favored by God from before time to receive His grace through faith in His Son, will have at a time of God's choosing a true and living faith within them by the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit which will produce true belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, perseverance, confidence in His promise and whatever good fruit God has ordained. That's what Scripture tells us.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself" -- Ephesians 1:4-9

Calvin wrote many sermons on Ephesians 1...

CALVIN'S SERMON ON EPHESIANS 1:3-4

"Although we are subject to much misery in this world, yet there is good reason for us to content ourselves with God's choosing of us after that fashion and with his calling of us to himself, for it is witnessed to us by the gospel that he is our Father [Matt. 6:9; Lk. 11:2] inasmuch as he has joined us to our Lord Jesus Christ as members to their Head. ...

But St. Paul, to exclude all merit on man's part and to show that all comes from God's pure goodness and grace, says that he has blessed us according to his election of us beforehand...

Now if it is demanded why God pities the one part and forsakes and leaves and abandons the other, there is no other answer but that it so pleases him. Upon the preaching of the gospel in a place, some will be affected with lively faith in their hearts and others will go away as they came without benefiting at all, or else they harden themselves against God and betray the stubbornness that was hidden in them before. What is the reason for this difference? Even this, that God directs the one sort by his Holy Spirit and leaves the other sort in their natural corruption...

St. Paul speaks here of the things we know by experience, namely, that we are God's children, that he governs us by his Holy Spirit, that he comforts us in our miseries and that he strengthens us through patience. We should not conceive any of all these things unless we were enlightened by his Holy Spirit. How then shall we understand that which is much higher, namely, that God elected us before the creation of the world? Since the matter stands thus, let us learn to put away all that we conceive in our own brain and put it under foot, and let us be ready to receive whatever God says to us, casting away our own judgment and assuring ourselves that we cannot bring anything from our side but utter stupidity. Thus you see what we have to bear in mind...

In this matter, then, God shows a double grace. The one is when he raises up men to preach the gospel to us, for no man is meet and sufficient to do it of himself. It is therefore necessary that God should send those who call us to him and offer us the hope of salvation. But yet, for all that, let us note well that we cannot believe unless God reveals himself to us by his Holy Spirit and speaks to our hearts by the Holy Spirit, in addition to speaking to our ears by the mouth of man. And that is the reason why the prophet Isaiah says, 'Who hath believed our doctrine, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?' [Isa. 53:1]. He shows that there is no faith in the world till God has worked in men's minds and hearts by the power of his Holy Spirit. And for the very same reason also our Lord Jesus Christ says that no man comes to him except he be drawn by the Father; but whoever has learned of my Father (he says), the same submits himself to me [Jn. 6:44]. In a word, we see clearly that God shows himself merciful to us when he vouchsafes to enlighten us by his Holy Spirit in order that we might be drawn to the faith of his gospel..."


9,856 posted on 10/25/2007 9:52:54 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; jo kus; MarkBsnr; kawaii; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; blue-duncan; ...
Let's try to keep this straight. The elect will not be robotic in faith. The elect will not simply "go through the motions because God ordained it."

First, don't quote St. Paul to me, please, because he alone is not Christianity. Second, because the Protestant interpretation of St. Paul is inconsistent with the way the original Church understood it.

Third, do not offer me the Westminster Confession as any source of any truth. If the Reformed are true Christians they should be able to defend their beliefs based on the early Church, the Creed, as well as on the Gospels, through which all the rest of the New Testament and Old Testament attains full meaning, all of which are interconnected and inseparable.

Fourth, the Reformed Calvinist theology states that God has doubly pre-ordained everything, and that nothing can change His perfect Plan. That means no amount of prayer either. Which means this "movie" has an end and no amount of prayer will change it.

Fifth, if the bible tells us that we should pray (and biblical instances of prayer are always supplications for change of God's mind in the name of mercy) it is because God can and does change the course as we go along. We call that God's intercessions. Those don't change the big picture but they can save another soul and bring it to God.

So, not everything is predestined and set in stone. God's mercy changes and adds blessings (Isa 38:5) which result in changes in our lives.

9,885 posted on 10/25/2007 6:01:33 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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