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To: MarkBsnr
I think that I have shown that Calvin followed at least 3 of the major 1st millennium heresies without any dispute whatsoever from his followers. If you wish further discussion on that subject, we can do so.

And which heresies would those be?

The passage from 1 John says “that we may know”. Not “that we know”. Read your post back. There is no proof of your statement: “Scripture is pretty clear on the fact that men can KNOW that they have eternal life (1 John 5:13). I would assume that you believe as well that one can have assurance that they are at least presently in a state of salvation.“

I said that Scripture is pretty clear on the fact that men CAN KNOW that they have eternal life. And what does the passage I cited say? "I write these things to you so that you MAY KNOW that you have eternal life." (The "may" is indicative of ability not probability)

If you would self identify as a heretic, then perhaps you might further examine your beliefs in order to find out why.

Let me get this straight...you want me to admit I'm a heretic in the hopes that I will then examine my beliefs and discover where my beliefs qualify me as a heretic?

So...you want me to identify myself as a heretic prior to actually believing that I am one...

(This after insisting you aren't accusing me of heresy)

I really don't know what to say....

9,852 posted on 10/25/2007 9:18:35 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Few things are funnier than being labelled a heretic BY a heretic.)
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To: Frumanchu

What Is Heresy?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that “heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth that must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same” (CCC 2089).

To commit heresy, one must refuse to be corrected. A person who is ready to be corrected or who is unaware that what he has been saying is against Church teaching is not a heretic.

A person must be baptized to commit heresy. Movements that have split off from or been influenced by Christianity but do not practice baptism (or do not practice valid baptism) are not heresies but separate religions.

Finally, the doubt or denial involved in heresy must concern a matter that has been revealed by God and solemnly defined by the Church (for example, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacrifice of the Mass, the pope’s infallibility, or the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary).

The first and most obvious heresy at the heart of the Reformation is Gnosticism, which really is at the heart of many other heresies. This is indwelling knowledge that something exists and that knowledge only rests in a selected or elite body. Many varieties of Gnosticism also hold that matter and the body are evil while only “spirit” is good. Some forms of Gnosticism even see human beings as trapped in our bodies. The theory thus denies the truth of the biblical teaching that “God saw that it was good” (Gen. 1:10, 12, 18, 21, 25). For the true Gnostic, the Incarnation is a scandal — God would not contaminate his spirit by taking on a body.

Gnosticism existed before Christianity and attached itself to it as a convenient vehicle for its own very un-Christian ideas about reality and God’s creation. The surprising thing, perhaps, is that it ever attempted to use Christianity for its purposes. The historical fact of the matter, though, is that Gnosticism has been a persistent element in practically every major Christian heresy. Probably one of the reasons for this is that, in some ways, our bodiliness is a burden to us. As Paul remarked, “the whole creation has been groaning in travail” (Rom. 8:22) until we can realize the fullness of our salvation in Christ — thus the temptation to look for salvation in some kind of escape from our bodiliness and creatureliness as God has created us in this world.

The Gospel of Judas is an example. Dan Brown’s Da Vinci Code was built upon Gnosticism, and we all know how popular that was, and continues to be, amongst the book buying and movie going crowd. According to the Gnostic Society Archives, “Gnosticism is the teaching based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means. Although Gnosticism thus rests on personal religious experience, it is a mistake to assume all such experience results in Gnostic recognitions

Others which spring to mind:

Iconoclasm arose when a group of people known as iconoclasts (literally, “icon smashers”) appeared, who claimed that it was sinful to make pictures and statues of Christ and the saints, despite the fact that in the Bible, God had commanded the making of religious statues (Ex. 25:18–20; 1 Chr. 28:18–19), including symbolic representations of Christ (cf. Num. 21:8–9 with John 3:14).

Donatism was a fourth- and fifth-century African heresy that held that the validity of the sacraments depended upon the moral character of the person administering the sacraments. Donatists also denied that serious sinners could be true members of the Church.

A recurring phenomenon in the history of the Church is that heresies often arose because of either moral rigorism or moral laxity. An example of the latter was the heresy of Pelagianism, championed by a monk from the British Isles named Pelagius (355-425). Pelagius denied that divine grace in the soul is necessary to do good; his doctrine included a number of heretical tenets such as that Adam would have died even if he had not sinned and that Adam’s fall injured only himself. Essentially, Pelagianism amounted to a denial of the doctrine of original sin, and it also entailed a denial of the supernatural order and of the necessity of divine grace for salvation. Augustine, who had discovered from bitter personal experience that he could not be chaste without the help of grace, strongly and persistently contested Pelagius and his teaching. Many of the current mainline Protestant denominations are shaking themselves to death because of increasing Pelagianism.

Marcionism. A second-century heresy of Marcion (ff. ca. 140) and his followers, who rejected the Old Testament and much of the New Testament, except for the Gospel of Luke and ten of the Letters of St. Paul. The Marcionists claimed to preach a purer gospel after the manner of St. Paul.

Montanism. A second-century heretical movement that professed belief in a new “Church of the Spirit”. The Montanists believed they enjoyed the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit. An apocalyptic movement emphasizing revelation named after its leader Montanus. Called “the New Prophecy” by its followers, Montanism, which began about 170 A.D., emphasized prophecy, direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, and a strict moral code. Two women, Priscilla and Maximilla, were leaders who delivered messages while in states of ecstasy.

And there are many more. The Internet has hundreds of relevant sites that you may wish to read.

If you KNOW that you have everlasting life in Heaven with God, that is Gnosticism, by the definition of the early Church. The passage means what says. May, might, possible, etc. The only one who knows your everlasting future is God.

God is the Judge of your soul, not me. All I can do is to compare your confession to what the Church has already identified and defined as heresy. Self identification.


9,857 posted on 10/25/2007 9:56:01 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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