So why do you insist that this new creation can do nothing good, even with God's graces moving his will to please God? How are we still worthless? In Christ, I can please God. "Our" acts of love are mine and His - they are pleasing to the Father because they have merit as a result of the Son's action when I do something. We still sin, but that doesn't mean I am a "sinner" in biblical terms. A "sinner" is someone whose life is not in keeping with the Commandments. A person walking in faith is not a "sinner", although he may sin. The big difference is that this occasional sin will be repented of. A "sinner" does not repent of sin.
The person goes from a 0% chance of salvation to a 100% chance.
I wouldn't go that far. We cannot meausure our "chance" of salvation in that way (I presume you mean "eternal glory"). It is statements like that which seem to differ with what Frumanchu said and you agreed with earlier. They are conflicting comments and are, quite frankly, confusing. What DO you believe?
I wrote: BECAUSE we are a new creation, the idea that man can do NOTHING must be discarded.
FK wrote: That's right. Now we can do good.
Wow, well, that was easy...If only I would have thought of typing those exact words months ago... So when you say "we" can do good, that means that man can do righteous acts while under the indwelling of the Spirit and they are counted as his acts in Christ?
Christ came SPECIFICALLY to save His children. He does not finish the good work that we began (if that is what "perfect" means). He will finish the good work that HE began.
Christ came to open the gates of heaven to all men, since God desires all men to be saved. I do not believe in limited atonement, and either does the Scriptures. God offers grace to all men. Whether that grace is efficient or merely sufficient is also dependent upon man's response to God. Being of the elect does not mean that we will enter eternal glory, so we do not know what work God is actually going to "complete" to the end. We are subjective certain that we are on the list, but we really do not know for certain.
Helping the helpless and the poor, etc. is not possible without us??? :)
God works through instruments, whether they are vessels of reprobation or vessels of predestination.
Without intending a shot, is that what "humanism" means in Catholic theology? I have used that word in a very different way in earlier posts to you. :)
Yes, humanism properly defined is the deification or divinization of mankind, and it is never meant in the sense that God is not involved. It is God's Divine Providence that is moving us towards Him and perfecting us. Thus, the earliest Church Fathers said that God glorified is man fully realized.
Regards
We can do nothing good OF OUR OWN.
Phil 2:13 : ... for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
God is responsible for both the willing and the acting, so it is not a cooperative effort. I said we have a new ability to "do good" since the above verse does not take effect until we have been given a new heart. This is when works become good in God's eyes. I admit that the way I put it probably seemed to clash with what Harley has been saying recently, but he and I are on the same page.
We still sin, but that doesn't mean I am a "sinner" in biblical terms. A "sinner" is someone whose life is not in keeping with the Commandments. A person walking in faith is not a "sinner", although he may sin. The big difference is that this occasional sin will be repented of. A "sinner" does not repent of sin.
I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure the Bible supports it. For example:
Luke 18:13-14 : 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner .' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
The tax collector could not have made his plea without already having been regenerated, yet he still calls himself a sinner, and is indeed praised by Jesus for saying so.
FK: "The person goes from a 0% chance of salvation to a 100% chance."
I wouldn't go that far. We cannot measure our "chance" of salvation in that way (I presume you mean "eternal glory"). It is statements like that which seem to differ with what Frumanchu said and you agreed with earlier. They are conflicting comments and are, quite frankly, confusing. What DO you believe?
I think I've seen everything Fru has said on this thread and I can't think of any disagreements I have. My comment above refers to Divine fact, as it applies to a generic person. Jesus either loses SOME of those the Father gives Him, or He loses NONE of them. That's the 100%. Fru and I have both said that we do not claim Divine knowledge as to our own salvations, but that doesn't affect the fact of our salvations one way or the other. Our assurance is what is humanly possible.
So when you say "we" can do good, that means that man can do righteous acts while under the indwelling of the Spirit and they are counted as his acts in Christ?
I was focusing more on the first part of your statement here, which I agree with. I was thinking of the before/after of salvation and when works become good in God's eyes. But as I alluded to earlier, the acts still belong to God since He both willed them and moved us to do them. I'm sorry if I sent you mixed signals on this. :)