[HarleyD]

You responded: That isn't what the text state. Come on, Harley, I don't have time for these games.."And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" 1 Cor 1:16-17

There isn't any games and you've posted the reference, "Christ sent me not to baptize...". I'm not saying baptism wasn't important but if it was a method of bringing people into the Church, then Paul's statement would make no sense.

That is your theology imposing itself on the text again. While I agree that Paul is not desiring to create factions where people follow different leaders, I don't see that Paul says that "baptism is unimportant".

I'm not saying baptism wasn't important. You are saying that it was a method of bring people into the Church as the elect. I would suggest that this makes no sense in that Paul states specifically that "1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you,...". Now isn't that a rather stupid statement to make if baptism is a way of bringing people into the Church? I would suggest that you are imposing your theological perspective on text that is rather clear. I've noticed that you conveniently left that portion out.

Most Catholics hold...that God foresaw an individual's merits in determining selection.

Wow, that is some type of admission.

My commment stands. There are no Scriptures that tell us that an individual has been predestined to eternal glory.

Given that man must merit his way and God only foresaw his merit, I can understand how you arrived at this conclusion. Unfortunately it is the wrong conclusion.

So that means that God doesn't love you???

That is what most non-Calvinists DON'T understand!!! The only way you can truly understand the great love the Father has for us is to truly understand the great depth of our depravity. Few, if any, like to talk about hell (even Calvinists). I find that in understanding hell one can understand the love of God. The only way I understood God's love for me was to understand what a wretched creature I am. As long as a person thinks, "I'm OK, you're OK." they will never truly understand God's love. "We are not to think more highly than we ought to think but we are to think with sober judgment." I didn't say that but it's great advice.

We can be after our regeneration begins, Harley. You are stuck in the old creation, the old man. Our charecteristics and abilities CHANGE because God effects within us a NEW CREATION.

And when does our regeneration begin? When do we receive faith? Is it before or after we have faith?

Even when the Bible says that God and man work together - the Calvinist WILL NOT HAVE IT! So much for the Sovereign God.

And where are your verses that man generates his own faith? God is sovereign yet His creatures can say no to Him. God want to save people He has already condemned to hell. God wants everyone saved, yet He only appears to certain people throughout scripture. God wants people to repent and yet is not powerful enough to bring people to repentance.

This rational was always goofy to me. The scriptures are much clearer on this side of the fence.

[jo kus]

I'm not saying baptism wasn't important but if it was a method of bringing people into the Church, then Paul's statement would make no sense.

I have already explained that Paul's primary purpose was to preach the Gospel, as I quoted Scriptures (and you then told me that wasn't what the text stated...) He felt called to preach the Word. He admits that he baptized. Paul is merely saying that it is not important WHO baptized a person, since the work is God's, not Cephas, not Paul, not anyone else but the Spirit. Paul is not impressed with the Corinthian's naming of sects and who baptized who. That only leads to dissension.

If only our separated brothers would hear Paul on this...

Harley claims I wrote: Most Catholics hold...that God foresaw an individual's merits in determining selection.

Harley congratulates himself for his twisting of my words: Wow, that is some type of admission.

You are kidding, right? Apparently, you are having a difficult time interpreting what I write, again...How convenient that you put ellipses into my quote, which makes me say something that I did not say...

Here it is again. Try carefully to take in what I wrote:

Of course God has predestined individuals to the Church WITHOUT considering their merits. Most Catholics hold to that (although Molinarism, an acceptable alternative, says that God foresaw an individual's merits in determining selection.) posted 5:21PM 10/23/2007

This clearly says something other than what you try to make me say.

Unfortunately it is the wrong conclusion.

Please provide Scriptural evidence that backs up your opinions. Otherwise, they are meaningless to me.

I wrote :So that means that God doesn't love you???

Harley replied: That is what most non-Calvinists DON'T understand!!!

Listen, you told me that God does not love man. That's what you wrote. What can I say? Of course, I am going to question that, since the Bible says otherwise. As it is appearing more clear, Calvinists ignore God's Word, even if it means ignoring what is clearly written in the Scriptures.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And when does our regeneration begin? When do we receive faith? Is it before or after we have faith?

Regeneration begins after baptism, when the Spirit comes to us.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:4

"And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Eph 4:24

And where are your verses that man generates his own faith?

And where have I ever said that? Faith is a gift from God, a gift that we can choose to ignore or to accept.

God is sovereign yet His creatures can say no to Him.

That's God's Will. God desires men have free will. Thus, although God desires all men to be saved, God sees that some choose not to be saved. Based on viewing their demerits, God reprobates them - giving them over to His wrath, which is separation from His eternal love, their desire.

This rational was always goofy to me. The scriptures are much clearer on this side of the fence.

Sure. Your god would be a liar, then, since he wants all men to be saved while simultaneously ordaining and creating men to the eternal torture of hell, without seeing whether they deserve it or not, without even giving them a chance to DESIRE to be saved. You believe in God's Sovereignty, but won't allow Him to have it when His Word says something in black and white (such as "synergy" between God and man) and happens to be against your theology. God is simultaneously holy and the creator of sin. That's not goofy?

THAT rationale is pagan fate. You can have it.

Regards