Replies

I know you have quoted several verses along the lines of "Jesus died to save the whole world". But if these are taken literally, then either God is a complete failure

That sounds funny, FK, coming from the Reformed side which reads the bible literally, almost like a fairytale, when it suits its agenda.

a better view is to see these verses more as the Jews saw them at the time. To them, only Jews could go to Heaven. These verses opened up "the world" to include Gentiles

Really? That's why God created a New Covenant. Jews were the "elect," the chosen to bring the knowledge of God to the whole world (salvation is from the Jews) and not to take it as a privilegde of being the only ones going to heaven. That is precisely where their error was, and where the Reformed error is.

But I do not "declare" that this is the only way to see it. There just has to be something better than "God is a colossal failure or He did not atone for us". I've said this many times, but never have gotten a comment from an Apostolic, so I can only assume that your side is comfortable with these possibilities

God's offer is one of love for mankind, not love for some and hate for others as men would have it. Why is His offer of salvation for all of humanity a "collossal failure?" You disallow God the freedom to allow free choice.

FK: "I know you have quoted several verses along the lines of "Jesus died to save the whole world". But if these are taken literally, then either God is a complete failure."

That sounds funny, FK, coming from the Reformed side which reads the bible literally, almost like a fairytale, when it suits its agenda.

I haven't the slightest idea what your point is.

FK: "... a better view is to see these verses more as the Jews saw them at the time. To them, only Jews could go to Heaven. These verses opened up "the world" to include Gentiles."

Really? That's why God created a New Covenant.

Really? Do you believe God created a New Covenant to correct an error?

Jews were the "elect," the chosen to bring the knowledge of God to the whole world (salvation is from the Jews) and not to take it as a privilegde of being the only ones going to heaven. That is precisely where their error was, and where the Reformed error is.

You continue to skip Reformed theology 101. If you ever bothered to audit that class for even ONE DAY, you would know that NO REFORMER says that only Reformers go to Heaven. That is one of many straw men leveled by the accusers.

You disallow God's omnipotence. If God is not omnipotent, then He can fail, as is requred in your model. That is your decision. The offer is not the failure, the result is, under your theology.

It's simple. You claim God's will that all men be saved. If you equated "God's will" to "God's offer", then this argument would mostly go away. :) But I do not think that is reasonable. If that happened then we would be back to who decides salvation, God or man? We obviously disagree on that. :)