FK, if God reprobates people BEFORE viewing their demerits (a philosophical view, not scriptural), then we must assume that God's will is to send people to hell for absolutely no reason but some arbitrary decision. Do you claim that God does this against His will? If God reprobates such people, and simultaneously saying that God is free, please explain how God does something He does not consider to be good and "enjoyable". It is God's nature to work good - and He does this because it is His will. Thus, if God actively does something, He actively enjoys it. Are you following my logic?
We believe, with the Scriptures and our view of God, that God does NOT actively reprobate souls BEFORE seeing their demerits. God sends people to hell as punishment for something man did or did not do. It is not God's will that man disobey Him. God ALLOWS it, but this "allowance" is God's will, not the action that man takes that is evil.
As to whether lurkers can make sense of this or not, they are certainly free to chime in publically or privately to either of us. I will presume that they can follow our argument if they do not protest or question.
Yes, I have said that God ordains everything that is part of His plan, and that includes reprobating many people. The Bible says He does this in His good pleasure, but I think it is intellectually dishonest for anyone to create a word picture from this that God is some kind of blood-thirsty maniacal killer. Nobody thinks that.
Well, people associate "pleasure" to something that is pleasing. Thus, the word picture remains. If God actively is pleased to send people to hell based on absolutely NO DEMERITS WHATSOEVER, what does that make your god to be? I leave the lurkers to decide. You can provide all the spin you like, but the fact remains that your god APPEARS sadistic, not loving. It APPEARS that God randomly and arbitrarily creates a being JUST so that they can eternally suffer - for absolutely no reason whatsoever, but to "please" your god.
This is a revolting picture for those who believe God IS love. Love gives of itself to the other. Love does not randomly select beings to create and then torture, just to "please" oneself.
Thanks, but no thanks. It is not what Christ taught. I pray that you recognize that the Scriptures are clarified by Christ, since they all point to Him. Do you read the Gospels and really come up with the god of Calvin? Do you read such verses and think that God reprobates WITHOUT seeing demerits? Let's look at a few verses to get an idea WHO God REALLY is, FK...
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!Luke 13:34.
Can't you hear the Words of God? IF ONLY YOU WOULD TURN TO ME - BUT YOU WOULD NOT!!!
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. John 3:16-20
Again, we have God's GREAT Love, even going so far as to offer His only Son for the sake of the WORLD. Note, the Scriptures say that men refuse, that some men will not come to the light, even when it is shown to them. It says that a person is condemned BECAUSE they WILL NOT believe. This is not the idea of reprobating BEFORE demerits!
This idea is certainly not confined to the Gospels:
And they remembered that God [was] their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues. For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant. But he, [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For he remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again. How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, [and] grieve him in the desert! Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. They remembered not his hand, [nor] the day when he delivered them from the enemy. Ps 78:35-42
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye. Ezekiel 18:30-32
God finds NO PLEASURE in the death of ANYONE. Read the rest of that chapter, FK. Even those who commit evil, God desires them to turn to Him. Where is your idea that God takes "pleasure" in eternally torturing someone WITHOUT SEEING THEIR DEMERITS? WHERE is this concept in scriptures?
And finally, my favorite Psalm, one that sometimes brings tears to my eyes because it shows the type of God who calls us
Thou calledst in trouble, and I delivered thee; I answered thee in the secret place of thunder: I proved thee at the waters of Meribah. Selah. Hear, O my people, and I will testify unto thee: O Israel, if thou wilt hearken unto me; There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god. I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: [and] they walked in their own counsels. Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, [and] Israel had walked in my ways! I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries. Psalm 81:7-14
Can't you hear God's voice, almost a frustration that His people would not come to Him? Sounds a lot like the voice of Christ in Luke's quote above, doesn't it? And THIS is the same God who you think creates people to eternally destroy, for His good "pleasure", WITHOUT SEEING THEIR DEMERITS?
The Bible speaks eloquently about God's love, His calling to men, to join Him in eternal union. Your picture of who God is contradicts a basic Christian paradigm of the God of Love, a God of forgiveness, One who would even send His Son to die for mankind as a whole. This God who desires ALL men to be saved has sent His Son to atone for the sins of ALL men. Scriptures clearly tell us this.
Your god is not the Christian god, I'm sorry to say. Your god is one who randomly creates beings to send to hell without seeing whether this being deserves such eternal torture. The two ideas are totally incompatible. You can't have it both ways. Either God is arbitrary or God is just. Either God is sadistic or God is love. Either God seeks men to save or God willingly and for his own pleasure, creates beings to torture in eternity.
Regards
How can you possibly conclude that? Because God's selection process is not obvious to you, YOU feel you have the right to declare it arbitrary? What could you possibly know about how that is decided? That's gotta be a few demerits on Roman Catholicism for assault on God's sovereignty. :)
[continuing:] Do you claim that God does this against His will?
No, God's reprobating is fully in accordance with His will.
It is God's nature to work good - and He does this because it is His will. Thus, if God actively does something, He actively enjoys it. Are you following my logic?
Perhaps not. :) It is usually someone on the Apostolic side who screams "Anthropomorphism"! when anyone says that God "enjoys" anything, so I'm not sure why you are phrasing it that way. I just don't think it is fair for anyone to characterize the Reformed belief as one having a God who takes human-like glee in the suffering of others. It is a part of God's plan, but there is no rubbing of hands together with an evil laugh. That's the picture I see Apostolics trying to portray, and I find it ridiculous.
It is not God's will that man disobey Him. God ALLOWS it, but this "allowance" is God's will, not the action that man takes that is evil.
The scriptures appear to disagree:
Ex 14:4 : And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord." So the Israelites did this. [Apparently, God's will that Pharaoh disobey Him brought Him glory.]
Isa 63:17 : Why, O Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.
Rom 9:18 : Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
It seems that in these, God is pretty active and not merely sitting back.
This is a revolting picture for those who believe God IS love. Love gives of itself to the other. Love does not randomly select beings to create and then torture, just to "please" oneself.
I'm sure it is a revolting picture to those who believe that God is love and NOTHING else. Such people believe that if God is love then He cannot also be justice, or wrath, or sovereign. This is a very limited God and one not described in the Bible.
Here you are describing purely human love. Sometimes I get this and sometimes I get that God is transcendent and so I shouldn't describe Him in ways JUST LIKE you are now. :)
[On Luke 13:34:] Can't you hear the Words of God? IF ONLY YOU WOULD TURN TO ME - BUT YOU WOULD NOT!!!
Sure, and when God asked Adam where he was in the Garden, it was because God had no idea. :) Same thing.
Note, the Scriptures say that men refuse, that some men will not come to the light, even when it is shown to them. It says that a person is condemned BECAUSE they WILL NOT believe. This is not the idea of reprobating BEFORE demerits!
Yes, many men refuse to come into the light because they are unable to do so because they have not been graced. God reveals Himself to all men in some sense so that no man has an excuse, but not all men can recognize that revelation. ...... A person is condemned within time because he does not believe, just as a person is saved within time because he DOES believe. The issue of predestination is unaffected on either side because of this.
God finds NO PLEASURE in the death of ANYONE.
In the actual sense the word is used in Ezekiel 18:30-32, I totally agree with you. This is not something where "jollies" are involved, but nevertheless, God has ordained what God has ordained.
Can't you hear God's voice, almost a frustration that His people would not come to Him? Sounds a lot like the voice of Christ in Luke's quote above, doesn't it? And THIS is the same God who you think creates people to eternally destroy, for His good "pleasure", WITHOUT SEEING THEIR DEMERITS?
Do you think that when God "sounds" frustrated in scripture that He actually IS frustrated? I really don't. Rather, I think He is conveying a message with such language. One meant to teach all of us.
You keep raising the issue of "WITHOUT SEEING THEIR DEMERITS". Would it be true that if God cannot reprobate without seeing one's demerits, then He cannot also predestine without seeing one's merits? Yet again, you tell us that you do not have a works-based salvation model. :)
Your god is not the Christian god, I'm sorry to say. Your god is one who randomly creates beings to send to hell without seeing whether this being deserves such eternal torture. The two ideas are totally incompatible. You can't have it both ways. Either God is arbitrary or God is just. Either God is sadistic or God is love. Either God seeks men to save or God willingly and for his own pleasure, creates beings to torture in eternity.
But you're not questioning my Christianity of course. :) (Intentional small "g" is noted.) I again marvel at your ability to know that God would choose randomly under our view. Perhaps you are a descendant of the Apostles with supernatural powers and didn't know it.
You focus here quite a bit on the idea of "deserve", yet elsewhere you tell me that God does "everything" for salvation. If God REALLY does everything for salvation, then as William Munny said: "Deserve's got nothing to do with it".
You say that God is either just or arbitrary. Fine. He is just and not arbitrary, your supernatural Divine mindreading skills notwithstanding. You then say that God is either sadistic or He is love. Fine again. God is love, among other things. Finally, you say that God either seeks men to save or He "willingly and for his own pleasure, creates beings to torture in eternity". This one makes no sense, since both options are false. God does not seek men to save, He chooses men to save.
And once again I must disagree with your supernatural Divine mindreading skills that presume the purpose for which God creates the lost. If you had scripture to back you up, that would be one thing, but I know that you do not. Instead, several scriptures have been posted to you showing that God creates the reprobate for the reason of serving His purposes while they are on earth. For example, we just saw in Ex. 14:4 that God would be glorified by hardening Pharaoh's heart. Therefore, you may want to get out of the business of reading God's mind to know His motives, especially when you have nothing to back you up.