LOL FK, do you REALLY hate sin? If you really hate sin then you must not sin because you avoid it like—well, sin! Is it really in us to hate sin?
He was all over the place in the OT speaking directly with people
Indeed, Exodus 33:11 says that God spoke to Moses "face to face!" And Deuteronomy 34:10 reiterates the same claim.
In Gen 12:7 God appears before Abraham, and again in Gen 17:1 and 18:1. God appears before people in Gen 26:2, 26:4, 32:30, 35:9, 48:3, Exodus 3:16, 6:3, 24:9-11, Num 14:14, Deut 5:4, 34:10, Jug 13:22, 1 King 22:19, Job 42:5, Isa 6:1, Eze 1:27, Amos 9:1, and Habakkuk 3:3-5. [all OT]
Yet Exodus 33:20 says "There shall no man see me, and live." This is reiterated by John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time." Or 1 Timothy 1:17 "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible..." or 1 Timothy 6:16 "Whom no man hath seen nor can see" and John repeates himself when he says "No man hath seen God at any time" [1 John 4:12]
Here the only "fluke" is Exodis 33:20; the rest are all NT verses! What gives, FK? Did God appear to OT Jews but revealed to the NT Jews that no one has veer seen Him or could see Him and live?
Neither of us can have any idea how many of the OT Jews were saved
Of course we do: none! No one was saved before Chirst came to save the world. There was no salvation for anyone before Chirst.
We both know that the OT Jews, that is, the masses in general, were on a yo-yo string throughout the OT
But it's God in the Reformed theology who either opens or shuts ones eyes. If the OT Jews went back and forth in their idolatry, WHO ordained that? If the Pharisees cold not recognize Him WHO caused them to no see Him (to this day in fact!)?
KOSTA: Of course we do: none! No one was saved before Chirst came to save the world. There was no salvation for anyone before Chirst.
Is this dogma for the EO, or does this opinion fall under your private interpretation?
God appeared in many different forms to OT Jews. For example, as a whirlwind to Job, as a cloud to the Israelites, and as a burning bush to Moses. Ex. 33:20 says that no one may see God's "face". Ex. 33:11 says they spoke "face to face", AS A MAN SPEAKS TO HIS FRIEND. I think that is the qualifier. God explains it around the first verse:
Ex 33:19-20 : 19 And the Lord said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
So, I wouldn't get too hung up on the face to face thing.
FK: "Neither of us can have any idea how many of the OT Jews were saved."
Of course we do: none! No one was saved before Christ came to save the world. There was no salvation for anyone before Christ.
I thought we both already knew that can't be right just because of the Transfiguration.
But it's God in the Reformed theology who either opens or shuts ones eyes. If the OT Jews went back and forth in their idolatry, WHO ordained that? If the Pharisees could not recognize Him WHO caused them to not see Him (to this day in fact!)?
God ordained it, and you're right that we believe that it is God who decides whose eyes will be open or shut. So, among the Pharisees who were lost (I don't believe all of them were lost) it was God who hid Himself from them. Cf:
Matt 11:25-26 : 25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father , Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Matt 16:16-17 : 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
God appeared in many different forms to OT Jews. For example, as a whirlwind to Job, as a cloud to the Israelites, and as a burning bush to Moses. Ex. 33:20 says that no one may see God's "face". Ex. 33:11 says they spoke "face to face", AS A MAN SPEAKS TO HIS FRIEND. I think that is the qualifier. God explains it around the first verse:
Ex 33:19-20 : 19 And the Lord said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
So, I wouldn't get too hung up on the face to face thing.
FK: "Neither of us can have any idea how many of the OT Jews were saved."
Of course we do: none! No one was saved before Christ came to save the world. There was no salvation for anyone before Christ.
I thought we both already knew that can't be right just because of the Transfiguration.
But it's God in the Reformed theology who either opens or shuts ones eyes. If the OT Jews went back and forth in their idolatry, WHO ordained that? If the Pharisees could not recognize Him WHO caused them to not see Him (to this day in fact!)?
God ordained it, and you're right that we believe that it is God who decides whose eyes will be open or shut. So, among the Pharisees who were lost (I don't believe all of them were lost) it was God who hid Himself from them. Cf:
Matt 11:25-26 : 25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father , Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Matt 16:16-17 : 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.