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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; P-Marlowe; xzins; Kolokotronis; jo kus; D-fendr; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD

“Imagine if I was walking past a park and noticed some little kid swinging too high on the swing set. I just observe. Then, the kid falls and gets hurt. You would blame me because I didn’t run in and tell the kid to get down. Your blaming of me wouldn’t be right or just. I had no duty to step in.”

Actually I would. There are many Good Samaritan laws in this country. They simply reflect the exhortation of Our Lord to take responsibility for others beyond your immediate comfort zone. There are sins of commission and of omission. Remember the Beatitudes. You are commanded to help others. I understand that some here think that the Sermon on the Mount (or the Plain) are suggestions or ‘ideas’ but I would differ with them.

They are commands to us with no lesser import than those in Deuteronomy or Leviticus.

God ordained all. God created all. God made all. Therefore if there is no ability for man to do otherwise, then God is responsible. The toy may have the ability to look left and right or flash lights, but if that windup toy has to go forward off the edge, then I am responsible for that toy going off the edge. Not the toy.

If I leave a 3 year old with matches alone in a room, then I am responsible for the resulting fire, not the 3 year old.

If God is the author of those who can commit only sin, then He is responsible for the sins. No matter how much squirming we do. If God ordains, then it is. No matter how much will we have or choose to exercise.


9,114 posted on 10/15/2007 5:54:20 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; P-Marlowe; xzins; Kolokotronis; jo kus; D-fendr; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; ...
FK: “Imagine if I was walking past a park and noticed some little kid swinging too high on the swing set. I just observe. Then, the kid falls and gets hurt. You would blame me because I didn’t run in and tell the kid to get down. Your blaming of me wouldn’t be right or just. I had no duty to step in.”

Actually I would. There are many Good Samaritan laws in this country. They simply reflect the exhortation of Our Lord to take responsibility for others beyond your immediate comfort zone. There are sins of commission and of omission. Remember the Beatitudes. You are commanded to help others. I understand that some here think that the Sermon on the Mount (or the Plain) are suggestions or ‘ideas’ but I would differ with them.

AHA!! A carefully laid trap which you dutifully walked into. :) I'm mostly kidding but what you are saying here is that the Godly thing to do would have been for me to impose my will over and above the free will of the child in order to save him from himself. Yet, your side expressly prohibits God from doing that for us. So, I would assume that you would blame God for every time one of His children decides to stroll off a cliff right in front of Him. :)

God ordained all. God created all. God made all. Therefore if there is no ability for man to do otherwise, then God is responsible.

That doesn't follow. You could make an argument that God is responsible to the extent that He created that which would later sin. That's fine with me, but when we usually talk about responsibility we are talking about who is going to be on the hook come judgment time. That is always going to be the individual person, not God. The WCF, which you clearly appear to be reasonably familiar with, nicely explains this in the context of primary and secondary causes.

The toy may have the ability to look left and right or flash lights, but if that windup toy has to go forward off the edge, then I am responsible for that toy going off the edge. Not the toy.

That's true, and as I said, the toy has no WILL at all. People are different. The sinful nature will freely choose to walk off the edge. That is not God's fault. God had no duty to provide options. He is the Potter.

If I leave a 3 year old with matches alone in a room, then I am responsible for the resulting fire, not the 3 year old.

Yes, if it was your legal or moral duty to care for THAT child. Now, if you GAVE the matches to the child, then you would be on the hook regardless (like God injecting evil into people to get them to sin). However, if you just observed it and had no legal or moral obligation, then you are not responsible.

If God is the author of those who can commit only sin, then He is responsible for the sins. No matter how much squirming we do.

No squirming is necessary, and this simply isn't so. As I say all the time, somehow, your side has placed an obligatory duty on God just for the fact of creation itself. To you, if God creates a man, then God OWES him "a chance". If God doesn't give him the chance, then anything the man does is on God. I have no idea where you guys get this, but it's not from the Bible. Just because He created you, what does God owe you, and why do you think He owes it to you?

9,165 posted on 10/16/2007 4:51:51 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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