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To: blue-duncan; Forest Keeper; stfassisi
Then you must disagree with stfassisi who used this quote as the basis for Mary’s eternal moral perfection since it is the same Greek verb construction that Paul uses to encourage the Ephesians that their salvation is a completed act in a believer with continuous permanent results.

Is Paul talking about a specific person in Ephesians 2? Is he pointing out someone's name, saying that God WILL complete His work in THAT person?

You are taking Paul's advice given generally and applying it specifically to yourself. It is the Lord who chooses us, not we Him. It is whether HE knew US, not whether we say "Lord, Lord", as in Mat 7:21. Thus, whether God will "complete the work begun in you" is PRESUMING you are one whom God is working within you in the first place with the INTENT on bringing you to heaven.

As long as we remain in Christ, we are safe. Is that so difficult? Why is there this NEED to think "all is done"?

Regards

9,018 posted on 10/14/2007 9:31:12 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; xzins; P-Marlowe; wmfights

“As long as we remain in Christ, we are safe”

Is there any proof that Mary kept herself in a position where she remained “full of grace” all of her life?

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.


9,019 posted on 10/14/2007 9:42:05 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: jo kus; blue-duncan; Forest Keeper; stfassisi
As long as we remain in Christ, we are safe.

Actually it should be worded that "as long as Christ remains in us, we are safe."

Now you need to ask yourself a simple question: "Is Christ in you?"

Is he really there?

If so, will He ever leave you or forsake you?

9,022 posted on 10/14/2007 11:05:06 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: jo kus; blue-duncan
“”Is Paul talking about a specific person in Ephesians 2?””

No. He is not talking about an “individual” specific person....And Paul certainly is not making an “individual” name change of the people is talking to.
“Saved” does not mean Full of perfection.The word “saved” is translated from the Greek word sesosmenoi, which is a perfect passive participle. It means that this salvation took place at some point in the past and is continuing on in the present. This means someone who endured to the end .It does not mean someone is SINLESS.

Only “One individual person” was called “kecharitomene”
Only the Blessed Mother.

The angel Gabriel uses this as a proper name for Mary, and we all know the significance of names in the Bible, right? Names define who and what the person is. For example, Jesus’ Name means: “Yahweh is Salvation.” And, indeed, that’s what Jesus was and is.“kecharitomene” is what Mary was and is...She is full of perfection-completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.

So, if Mary is “Full of grace,” how can this be if she was a sinner? One cannot be sinful and “full of grace” or “perfectly graced.” That’s a contradiction.

So, therefore, Mary must have been Baptized into Christ, (How else can a person be “full of grace”?) So, the only question is: When was Mary made this? Or, in “Protestant-ese,” when was Mary “saved” ? It must have been before Luke 1:28, right? So, when was it BD?

Saint Stephen is said to be full of grace before he was martyred in Acts 6:8. However a different word form is used to describe Saint Stephen. In the Greek the conjugated form of “charitoo” that is used to describe him is “charitos” not “kecharitomene” that is used in reference to Mary.

The only other time “kecharitomene” is used is in Ephesians 1:6
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9209fea2.asp
explains this well

Excerpt;
“The reason why the verb in Ephesians 1:6 does not imply sinless perfection, whereas the form of the same verb in Luke 1:28 does so imply, is this: The two verb forms use different stems. Every Greek verb has up to nine distinct stems, each expressing a different modality of the verb’s lexical meanings.(FH. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1968), 108-109.) Ephesians 1:6 has the first aorist active indicative form, echaritosen, “he graced, bestowed grace.” This form, based on an aorist stem, expresses momentary action,(Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166. ) action simply brought to pass.(Smyth, sec. 1852:c:1.) It cannot express or imply any fullness of bestowing because “the aorist tense . . . does not show . . . completion with permanent result.”(Ibid., sec. 1852:c, note.”

I wish you a Blessed Evening!

9,034 posted on 10/14/2007 3:32:44 PM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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