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To: Forest Keeper
God must be true to Himself, to His own nature. Part of that nature is justice. We can't know the metrics of how that works, but I assume that for it to be satisfied required an ultimate sacrifice by Christ.

I respectfully disagree, brother. Perhaps an example will help.

Let's say a child breaks a window in his house. Now, the Father, who loves the child, must have "justice" satisfied. True enough. But who's to say what will satisfy it? Each parent is different. Couldn't a father spank his kid, or ground him, or make him do chores, or just lecture him, or take away his ball, etc....

I don't see that God had to become a man and die to satisfy "justice". I believe that God did this out of love, not out of necessity or to satisfy "justice", since mercy is said to be greater in the Scriptures. Jesus said that to "die for another" is the greatest expression of love, so based on that, St. Aquinas said that it was "fitting" that Christ would make the ultimate sacrifice. However, no Catholic theologian that I am aware of said it was "necessary" in the formal sense.

I believe your theological opinion turns salvation into a legal issue. We think of salvation as an act of love.

Well, I would say that God's word has much more power than a tree sitting in a forest, even though they came from the same source. The Bible tells us that God's word has particular power:

Both the Bible and a tree were created by the Word of God. They both serve God and they both have a particular design and purpose. God's Word (Bible, I presume YOU mean, although the verse does not make that distinction - sola scripture presumption alert!) is powerful ONLY because a rational being reads or hears it and it TRANSFORMS a person. A bible does not have ANY other power except upon those who read it when indwelled by the Spirit. Now, cannot another part of creation do that as well? Can't a beautiful sunset or an event in our lives, brought about by God's Divine Providence, also bring about a transformation when God's Spirit dwells within us? I think some careful thought on that will help you understand my point - don't brush it off so quickly.

No doubt, the Bible is important, but I also think we shouldn't forget about the many different ways that God can reach out to us through creation. The Bible is only one example of that. St. Francis of Assisi was fully aware of that in his particular creation theology - thus, the "Brother Sun" or "Brother squirrel", realizing that ALL of creation is somehow linked because of its source, God Himself.

As an example, when Jesus was tempted in the desert, He SOLELY used the power of the word of God to defend.

Like anything in creation, it can be used against us. The devil quoted Scriptures against Jesus to try to tempt Him. The devil also uses creation to tempt us, as well. That is why so many ascetics (with Paul) stress renunciation of the material BEFORE we are able to effectively pray. Same with fasting.

Regards

8,821 posted on 10/11/2007 5:24:11 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus; irishtenor
Let's say a child breaks a window in his house. Now, the Father, who loves the child, must have "justice" satisfied. True enough. But who's to say what will satisfy it? Each parent is different. Couldn't a father spank his kid, or ground him, or make him do chores, or just lecture him, or take away his ball, etc....

Yes, the father would set the standard.

I don't see that God had to become a man and die to satisfy "justice". I believe that God did this out of love, not out of necessity or to satisfy "justice", since mercy is said to be greater in the Scriptures. Jesus said that to "die for another" is the greatest expression of love, so based on that, St. Aquinas said that it was "fitting" that Christ would make the ultimate sacrifice. However, no Catholic theologian that I am aware of said it was "necessary" in the formal sense.

I think we would agree that Jesus paid the price because God knew that we couldn't. Whatever God's standard was, we couldn't meet it no matter what we did. That's why Pelagius was full of baloney. Anyway, would an unnecessary sacrifice really be an act of love? In your example above, if the father decided to take the punishment in the place of the child, would he have been showing love for the child if he had taken the broken glass and slashed his wrists with it? I think not. The punishment would not fit the crime, even if the punishment is being paid by another.

When Jesus speaks of dying for another, isn't it assumed that there is a good reason for it, such as saving their lives? I mean, if a grenade landed in a deserted campground and I threw myself on it, would that really be showing love for my friends who were all safely in a foxhole? I just don't think so. I believe that sacrifice must have reason behind it, or it cannot be from love.

I believe your theological opinion turns salvation into a legal issue. We think of salvation as an act of love.

I admit I see justification as a bit of a legal issue, but salvation itself is definitely an act of God's love for His children.

God's Word (Bible, I presume YOU mean, although the verse does not make that distinction - sola scripture presumption alert!) is powerful ONLY because a rational being reads or hears it and it TRANSFORMS a person.

No presumption alert. :) God's word is in the Bible just as it is in the mouths of those who faithfully teach orally. Sola Scriptura is not offended in the slightest at this. ...... I'm not sure why you say "ONLY" here since the power of God's word to transform is a very real and substantial power.

A bible does not have ANY other power except upon those who read it when indwelled by the Spirit.

Or touched by the Spirit, but yes, I agree with you.

Now, cannot another part of creation do that as well? Can't a beautiful sunset or an event in our lives, brought about by God's Divine Providence, also bring about a transformation when God's Spirit dwells within us? I think some careful thought on that will help you understand my point - don't brush it off so quickly.

Well, this raises the same distinction I just mentioned above. Technically, the Spirit only indwells those who are already believers. But to your point, I agree that God can regenerate in any manner He sees fit. I do not doubt that some have been regenerated without ever having seen or known of a Bible. Given the distribution rates across time, that must be the case. But in the typical case I think we agree that the power of God's word actually DOES transform. It isn't the literacy that is primary, it is the "hearing" of God's word, which can take different forms.

Like anything in creation, it can be used against us. The devil quoted Scriptures against Jesus to try to tempt Him.

Actually, the devil MISQUOTED scriptures against Jesus. Big difference. For example:

Matt 4:6 : "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Now, the actual scripture says:

Ps 91:11-12 : 11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; 12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

This little omission by the devil obviously makes all the difference in the world as to the meaning of the passage. This would not have been one of Jesus' "ways". Jesus clearly knew better.

The devil also uses creation to tempt us, as well. That is why so many ascetics (with Paul) stress renunciation of the material BEFORE we are able to effectively pray. Same with fasting.

I would have no objection to this at all. :)

8,847 posted on 10/12/2007 3:36:39 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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