[Frumanchu]

Why is apostolic succession so important (and not just "spiritual succession")? It's not about bureaucracy, it's about valid Sacraments. If Jesus did not institute the Eucharist as His real presence and did not ordain the Apostles to "do THIS in my memory" and did not tell them "whose sins YOU forgive, they are forgiven", then the Protestants would be in the right: apostolic succession would not matter at all--just faith in Jesus. But if He did give Himself to us, flesh and blood, as the Bread of Life and set up a hierarchy and gave them power to forgive sins, then apostolic succession is most important even if their successors aren't so perfect. But the Apostles weren't perfect either, in fact one of them betrayed Our Divine Savior and many successors of the Apostles do so today (I'm not sure if it's one out of twelve today... it might be better or it might be worse!).

I disagree, friend. It is not about the Sacraments. It's about authority. Let me explain.

Obviously you point to those portions of Scripture regarding your view of the Sacrament and its validity. Of course, as a Protestant I disagree with your interpretation of those Scriptures as supporting the notion that only a priest ordained within a visible institution headed by a successor of the Apostle Peter can rightly administer the Sacraments.

If I ask you why I should take your interpretation over mine, you will ultimately appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to rightly interpret those Scriptures and forumlate that doctrine.

If I ask where the Roman Catholic Church was institutionally granted such authority, you will ultimately appeal to Scripture (Matt 16:18, ect).

If I ask you why I should take the Roman Catholic Church's interpretation of those Scriptures over mine, you will ultimately appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to rightly interpret those Scriptures and forumlate doctrine.

If I ask where... (you get the point)

All issues of disagreement between us will ultimately come back to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. I say this in the spirit of your comments earlier in that post. There is little that will ever be gained by dialog between us until we address this issue head on.

[xzins]

Are you suggesting there is circular reasoning going on?

How does one take on the circular argument that appeals to the authority of the RCC?

[kawaii]

If I ask where the Roman Catholic Church was institutionally granted such authority, you will ultimately appeal to Scripture (Matt 16:18, ect). If I ask you why I should take the Roman Catholic Church's interpretation of those Scriptures over mine, you will ultimately appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church to rightly interpret those Scriptures and forumlate doctrine.

Whereas protestants appeal to which authority? the authority of law school flunkies to reinterpret for themselves?

[fr maximilian mary]

You have grasped the point well (better than most Catholics!!!)--namely, that with God's Holy Word there are many possible interpretations and this points to authority. Who has the God-given authority to guard, pass on and authentically interpret God's Word? Clearly this can't mean "me and the Holy Spirit"--that just leads to more and more personal interpretations (even the Jehovah's witnesses claim to have the Spirit). No, Jesus gave His Apostles teaching authority and commissioned them specifically to teach: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you..." (Mt. 28:19). St. Paul likewise commissions St. Timothy to teach (for example, 1 Tim. 4:11-16--this is apostolic succession).

So your point is quintessential. True ecumenism has to tackle the differences head-on, in a spirit of prayer and charity, but beating around the bush will get us nowhere. Prayer, charity, dialogue... That's precisely why the Pope's statements are important. If he beat around the bush, now that would set ecumenism back a hundred years.

In the end it is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, who will unite us. We have to do our part and cooperate with His action. Come Holy Spirit, come...