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To: Forest Keeper; P-Marlowe; xzins; Kolokotronis; jo kus; D-fendr; MarkBsnr
The difference is in who gets the credit for it. For you, the credit must go to man. We give all the credit to God

Find me one instance where we give credit to man in our theology or liturgy. That is just plain bogus, FK.

We don't give credit to man; we put expectations on man.

In any case perseverance must physically take place, so that prohibits sitting back and relaxing

That is inconsistent with your theology of double predestination. Either you persevere because God makes you persevere, or you fail because God makes you fail by design—and there is nothing you can do to change it. So, those who choose not to do anything because they are already "saved" can always say God leads me, I am who I am and what I am and where I am just as God made me. No guilt whatsoever. In fact, it promotes sinning, just as Luther taught.

It brings us ever closer to Christ during our time on earth

If you are "saved" then it's not an accomplishment but a foregone conclusion. One cold just as easily say that he will be sanctified on God's time whenever that happens and not really worry about being sanctified on earth.

I don't know how you can possibly say that. To get something of value all one has to do is turn in the ticket

The salvation came as a free gift in the sense that those who willingly come to Christ, walk with Christ, imitate Christ, and become Christ-like in their hearts will be saved. The ticket was freedom to do so. Before Christ, no matter how much one wanted, one couldn't. It was a foregone conclusion that all mankind would go to hell.

Christ restored the freedom given to Adam and Eve to choose between good and evil. That freedom was lost when they sinned. They became captives of death and all their generations with them. It was Christ who brought down the shackles of death, and made mankind free to choose once again.

Maybe one day you will realize this. I pray.

8,313 posted on 10/05/2007 5:39:34 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan

You are saying that it is not possible for a pre-destined person to have free will. That is not the case.

You, for example, are destined to die. You are not going to change that.

Do you have free will?

If there is one exception, then it means that others probably exist.


8,316 posted on 10/05/2007 5:47:31 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: kosta50; P-Marlowe; xzins; Kolokotronis; jo kus; D-fendr; MarkBsnr
FK: "The difference is in who gets the credit for it. For you, the credit must go to man. We give all the credit to God."

Find me one instance where we give credit to man in our theology or liturgy. That is just plain bogus, FK. We don't give credit to man; we put expectations on man.

Given the Apostolic view of free will and man's cooperation in salvation, I would say you always give credit to man. But let's try it this way. The following is from Wiki's Glossary of spirituality-related terms:

Virtue: (Greek αρετη; Latin virtus) The habitual, well-established, readiness or disposition of man's powers directing them to some goodness of act. (1) Virtue is moral excellence of a man or a woman. The word is derived from the Greek arete (αρετη). As applied to humans, a virtue is a good character trait. The Latin word virtus literally means "manliness," from vir, "man" in the masculine sense; and referred originally to masculine, warlike virtues such as courage. In one of the many ironies of etymology, in English the word virtue is often used to refer to a woman's chastity. In the Greek it is more properly called ηθικη αρετη. It is "habitual excellence". It is something practiced at all times. The virtue of perseverance is needed for all and any virtue since it is a habit of character and must be used continuously in order for any person to maintain oneself in virtue. (emphasis added)

Now, just tell me this is theologically bogus (and why) and you're off the hook. :)

FK: "In any case perseverance must physically take place, so that prohibits sitting back and relaxing."

That is inconsistent with your theology of double predestination. Either you persevere because God makes you persevere, or you fail because God makes you fail by design—and there is nothing you can do to change it. So, those who choose not to do anything because they are already "saved" can always say God leads me, I am who I am and what I am and where I am just as God made me. No guilt whatsoever. In fact, it promotes sinning, just as Luther taught.

No, no, no. :) Perseverance is not for everybody, it is ONLY for the elect. How can one persevere in something he never started? So, the second group of people you speak of do not exist. God only guarantees perseverance, He never prevents someone from completing it. Those who never do anything are just regular lost people, regardless of their false professions. They are not eligible to persevere. So, they will sin just like any other lost person would.

If you are "saved" then it's not an accomplishment but a foregone conclusion. One could just as easily say that he will be sanctified on God's time whenever that happens and not really worry about being sanctified on earth.

Nope. :) You are describing "hyper-Calvinism" and NO ONE around here believes in that. The Bible tells us not only that we are to serve, but that we must be equipped to serve. That can't happen by sitting around. The new heart God gives us moves us to follow these decrees, so we are motivated to participate in activities that will lead to us becoming ever more sanctified, and ever more faithful in His service.

8,552 posted on 10/08/2007 2:48:40 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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