[Forest Keeper]

Harley: "Why people don't believe God chooses His own is beyond me especially when our Lord Jesus says, "You did not choose me but I've chose you". It made perfect sense to me once I heard it."

Dr. E.: "What's really astounding is when Christians don't understand and appreciate and thank God for the fact that they have been chosen by God from all eternity, and that they didn't do the choosing."

Yes, it is truly astounding. And of course, the trick they use to get out of Harley's passage is selective application. Here it is:

John 15:16-17 : 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit — fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Since verse 16 threatens the power of the men of the Magisterium, since the Magisterium is the dispenser of salvation, it must be declared to refer to only the Apostles (and by extension their Apostolic successors) but no other Christians. However, of course, verse 17 is relatively harmless to these men in terms of their power, so I'm sure they would allow THAT one to apply to us all.

I do think that in SOME Biblical cases selective application is actually intended, but the frequency with which they wholesale switch in mid-thought is, as you said, astounding. It's that dreaded lens again. :)

[HarleyD]

Since verse 16 threatens the power of the men of the Magisterium, since the Magisterium is the dispenser of salvation, it must be declared to refer to only the Apostles (and by extension their Apostolic successors) but no other Christians. However, of course, verse 17 is relatively harmless to these men in terms of their power, so I'm sure they would allow THAT one to apply to us all.

LOL, FK!!! You're absolutely correct. John 15 becomes an exercise in trying to decide who Christ is speaking to so I have highlighted parts of it to make it a little more understandable.

CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL Joh 15:9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL Joh 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL Joh 15:11 "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL Joh 15:12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL Joh 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL Joh 15:14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.
WARNING-FOR THE DISCIPLES ONLY Joh 15:15 "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
WARNING-FOR THE DISCIPLES ONLYJoh 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
CHRISTIANS IN GENERALJoh 15:17 "This I command you, that you love one another.
CHRISTIANS IN GENERALJoh 15:18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.