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To: D-fendr; xzins; 1000 silverlings; suzyjaruki; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Alamo-Girl
The answer to the question is no

The fact that it took several questions to elicit the answer should tell us we really, really hate to acknowledge someone having control over us.

FWIW, when I was first asked that question, it took me months to sputter out a resentful "no."

But in answering the question, it becomes clear that God's omniscience is exactly the same thing as God's predestination. What God knows will happen will happen, no matter what. Nothing comes before God's knowledge of the future and nothing precedes God's creative decree for that future.

God is outside of time, but God did create the world inside of time. And at the moment of creation, all history was decided by His perfect purpose. As you said, whatever God knows will happen, will happen.

Further, if God wanted something else to happen, He would have foreseen the disagreeable event and altered its course so it would conform to what He wanted to occur in the future.

The result would be the same. What occurs is what God wants to occur, one way or another.

To deny this is to deny the paradox at the heart of our lives. Rather than deny it; we should embrace it. It is all of God, and it is all good.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:10

If God knows you will believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior until you die, is your spiritual destination undecided? Or is it set in stone in the mind of God because it was God who gave you that faith in the first place?

7,421 posted on 09/27/2007 4:06:02 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The fact that it took several questions to elicit the answer should tell us we really, really hate to acknowledge someone having control over us.

No it tells us nothing of the sort. My many answers were illustrations that the question and answer do not mean what you obviously thought it did.

7,435 posted on 09/27/2007 5:47:48 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
But in answering the question, it becomes clear that God's omniscience is exactly the same thing as God's predestination.

No it doesn't, else omniscience would equal predestination which it doesn't and it would necessarily add up to TULIP, and it doesn't.

Further, if God wanted something else to happen, He would have foreseen the disagreeable event and altered its course so it would conform to what He wanted to occur in the future.

You are thinking that omniscient=predestination=TULIP, necessarily and - you think - logically proven so. But you have not made omniscient=predestination and you certainly haven't made TULIP the only possible logical outcome from God's omniscience.

To illustrate, try this:

- God is omniscient and omnipotent.

- If God wished creation otherwise He would have made creation otherwise.

- God made man with free will.

None of these statements violate either logic or God's omniscience and omnipotence. And all can be true and TULIP false.

TULIP does NOT necessarily and logically flow from God's omniscience, which was the fallacy inherent in your original question.

7,440 posted on 09/27/2007 5:58:20 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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