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To: Forest Keeper
what happens when an infant is baptized? I thought that was when the sacrifice was applied, i.e. before there is belief or will. I remember there being some kind of a proxy thing, but am not sure if you are talking about that above.

The parent's faith stands in proxy. There is plenty of precedent for this, in both OT and NT. First, how did people come into the Old Covenant? Through circumcision, based on the faith of the parents. In the NT, Jesus gives several examples of how he heals based on the faith of others. Hopefully, you would agree that Lazarus, for example, was healed - not based on HIS faith, but on the requests and faith of OTHERS (and His own will).

You say it is ridiculous to be able to repent of future sins and we say it is ridiculous to repent and believe by proxy. :)

I believe I have given plenty of Scriptural precedent for my view. Where does the Bible say we are forgiven for sins we have not committed yet or not repented of yet?

Second, a guilty conscience does not come from one's view on the salvific nature of repentance. It comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Spirit moves all believers to want to come back to Him, and giving a guilty conscience is one motivational tool.

Not sure what you are denying above, but I think I agree with your "indwelling Spirit" part.

we do not consider ourselves righteous in our justification. We consider that we are justified because of CHRIST'S righteousness, not our own.

Christ makes us righteous. 1 John, for example, states that we are righteous AS Christ is righteous. There is no indication of a "legal-only" justification. What God declares, He MAKES SO.

Regards

7,223 posted on 09/26/2007 7:02:51 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus; kosta50; P-Marlowe; xzins; Kolokotronis; D-fendr; MarkBsnr
Hopefully, you would agree that Lazarus, for example, was healed - not based on HIS faith, but on the requests and faith of OTHERS (and His own will).

I would agree that he was healed by God's will. I don't think God would not have healed BUT FOR having His mind changed by looking at a full in-box of prayers. :)

Where does the Bible say we are forgiven for sins we have not committed yet or not repented of yet?

It's all over the place. We disagree on whether when God gives something He might take it back again. Caveats and codicils have to be added to almost all salvation verses to conclude that it is only a partial gift, the Apostolic view.

You have already been showed dozens of verses, here are a few I do not remember posting before:

Eph 1:7-8 : 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

We are either redeemed or we are not. It is either paid in full or it is not.

Rom 5:10-11 : 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Obviously meaningless and empty words if God takes back His reconciliation. What reason have we to rejoice if we can throw it all away on a whim?

Heb 9:12 : 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

WHOOPS! Not so fast, Christ. :) You obtained no eternal redemption for anyone, you only obtained the possibility for all people to decide for themselves to accept redemption. And of course there are these words that I have posted before:

John 10:28-30 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

This would have to be completely re-written to match Apostolic theology. There are tons more of course. The words of scripture are ones of certainty over and over again.

Not sure what you are denying above, but I think I agree with your "indwelling Spirit" part.

I just meant that I don't think that a guilty conscience is a man-generated thing for the purpose of doing the motions to get into Heaven (and I'm not suggesting that you said that). It is a Spirit-generated thing to bring us closer to Him.

1 John, for example, states that we are righteous AS Christ is righteous.

And of course we both know that the real world proves for certain that this interpretation is not correct. Christ's righteousness meant that He never sinned, and yet we all still do.

7,713 posted on 09/29/2007 11:05:45 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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