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To: Forest Keeper

Actually, we argue along the lines that, given all of Scripture, it wouldn’t fit with what God has told us about our purpose and our relationship with Him that He wants us to have.

We really aren’t arguing about ‘fair’ - I’d say that that was an interesting side discussion - we are arguing about man’s purpose and man’s instructions as related to us by God. We are saying that man is instructed to reach out for God’s saving Grace, and all things come from that. Reformed doctrine says that it doesn’t matter if man reaches out or not, the Grace is put into him, and then all things come from that.

We also argue about what free will comprises. We believe that man is singly predestined to heaven unless he refuses God and then is rightly Judged to hell. I am unable to understand what the Reformed believe about free will because of the apparent variation in beliefs, but the statement that sticks with me is that nothing that man does matters.


7,138 posted on 09/25/2007 6:30:52 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; D-fendr; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; jo kus; xzins; ...
We are saying that man is instructed to reach out for God’s saving Grace, and all things come from that.

Does man do so based on his inner goodness, his power because he is a man? If every man is graced with inner goodness, then why is it that some reach out for saving grace and some reject? Is it that some have built up their free-will intelligence, or their free-will love, more than others?

Paul says this:

Rom 7:18-19 : 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good , but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do — this I keep on doing.

Paul didn't seem to think that his inner goodness was good enough to be able to reach out for saving grace on his own. What would the non-Pauline reading of this be?

Reformed doctrine says that it doesn’t matter if man reaches out or not, the Grace is put into him, and then all things come from that.

No, Reformed doctrine teaches that it is always God who reaches out and takes hold of man's hand, which was flailing about aimlessly and without purpose beforehand. Man never has the ability to reach out himself on his own.

We also argue about what free will comprises. We believe that man is singly predestined to heaven unless he refuses God and then is rightly Judged to hell. I am unable to understand what the Reformed believe about free will because of the apparent variation in beliefs, but the statement that sticks with me is that nothing that man does matters.

You can be certain that ALL Reformed believe that the initial destination of all mankind is hell, not Heaven. The scriptural evidence is overwhelming that the fallen nature is plenty enough to condemn if unchanged. To be honest, I was under the distinct impression that Roman Catholics also believed that original sin was fatal by itself. But you are telling me the exact opposite. So now I am unsure of the Latin belief because of "apparent variations". :)

7,350 posted on 09/27/2007 12:10:30 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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