God has freely given men free will to choose. That is how the Church reads the Scriptures as a whole. This does not mean that God bows out of the process. I believe Phil 2:12-13 is the best verse that describes that cooperation and interaction at the personal level.
So, for you every works-based verse that mentions "judgment" is salvation vs. hell.
No, I said that there are a few that discuss different levels of rewards, such as the parable of the talents. However, most of them ARE INDEED the difference between heaven and hell. Jesus Himself is pretty clear on that.
At the salvation judgment, I can just see God standing there and asking an Apostolic why He should let him into Heaven. Then, I presume, the Apostolic will try to list all the wonderful things he has done in his life and hope that it is enough to receive God's mercy and passage into Heaven. When it is my turn, I am simply going to point to my "Mouth", whose name is Jesus Christ. He will do all of my talking for me. BTW, that's always an option for you too, if you ever get stuck. :)
God's judgment of the individual is not based on what Jesus did on the cross, because HIS work was effective for ALL men. I have already listed for you over a dozen verses that show that Jesus died for ALL men, for ALL sins ever committed. If it was ALL Jesus and nothing of us, then, all men would be saved. If it is as you say, then WHAT determines why God goes AGAINST His own will that "all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth"? Revelation tells us that God is not a liar, so man MUST be part of the equation, part of WHY some men DO go to eternal damnation.
You cannot earn salvation, but you can lose it.
Loving itself is of course work in a real sense.
Your definition of "work" is not the biblical definition. A "work" is something you do for payment (Rom 4:4). We do not love for payment. Just the fact that you discuss "counting love works" shows that you are misunderstanding the whole point of love. Love doesn't "count" how many times you did "x" or how many times you sacrificed for the sake of the other.
You say that you didn't do it to receive something, but out of pure love. That is fine. HOWEVER, are you not ALSO saying that this is EXACTLY what you will be judged on in order to get into Heaven?
God uses our response to determine whether we actually believe Him, whether we trust Him, whether we love Him. Our response is measured by our actions, not by our words.
I only meant that God reaches us through the Bible, and also in a more direct personal sense, through specific leading. God can also use specific people in certain circumstances for specific purposes, but none of this speaks to Sola Scriptura. I don't know what you're saying.
Forget it, it's not on topic. I'll let you off the hook for now.
All of us CAN know about ourselves, but no one else with absolute certainty. It is for THIS reason that we Reformers minister to the whole world instead of just a few on the list. This is God's plan.
We can know about ourselves, but some thought will indicate that even THIS knowledge is not assured knowledge that we will enter heaven. It is GOD who makes such decisions, not our own self. You are making your own feelings of yourself the determinant on whether you are entering heaven and yet you hold to God's sovereignty? It sounds like YOU are determining whether you are going to heaven, not God.
And secondly, IF God has already decided on who will be saved, then your actions are meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Yes, we place our hope in Christ, and part of that hope is in that the words Christ spoke were true. If they were, then we are told that we may be sure of our salvation and have confidence in Him during our lives that He is good for His word.
And what is His Word? Believe in Him 20 years ago and you will enter heaven? I haven't found that quote yet. I HAVE found these, though...
And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Mat 10:22
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mat 24:13
It appears that Jesus desires that we believe in Him every day and to obey the Father's Will everyday to be saved. It seems that HE that endures will be saved. It doesn't say that "If Jesus endures to the end". God is not judged, man's endurance is judged. God provides the means to be saved for ALL men. But one must endure in Christ until the end to be saved. Naturally, God provides us with the Holy Spirit so that we may endure - but WE must endure, just the same. If man is not part of this equation, then it is God who is judged.
Regards
I like that passage too. How do you view the word "for" at the beginning of 13? Strong's does it this way:
NT:1063 - gar (gar); a primary particle; properly, assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles): KJV - and, as, because (that), but, even, for, indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.
If this is true, then it would seem that there is less of a cooperative effort as we normally think of it, and it's more that God gives us the will to act according to His good purpose. It's NOT that He gives us the suggestion to act, but rather the actual will. And that will is carried out. If He only gives us suggestions, then according to the verse, some of God's works are ineffectual.
No, I said that there are a few that discuss different levels of rewards, such as the parable of the talents.
OK, I stand corrected.
If it was ALL Jesus and nothing of us, then, all men would be saved.
No, that would be a hybrid of both of our positions and neither of us would agree to it. :)
If it is as you say, then WHAT determines why God goes AGAINST His own will that "all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth"?
I have a vague memory of us talking before about God's "decrees" and His outward calls and inward calls. We view God wanting all men to be saved as an outward call, but not a decree. If it was decreed, then it would happen, since omnipotent God can and does get everything He wants. The decree here would be that all of the elect are saved, which I think we both agree does happen.
You cannot earn salvation, but you can lose it.
And then one can "not earn" it back again, using his free will to act. :) We disagree on what constitutes earning. The Apostolic use is not the conventional human use of the term. It is unique to your theology.
Your definition of "work" is not the biblical definition. A "work" is something you do for payment (Rom 4:4). We do not love for payment.
How in the universe do you think that Romans 4:4 defines the word "work" throughout the whole Bible? :) There are different Greek words for "work" in the NT. And, different ones are used for Rom. 4:4 (ergazomai) and Eph. 2:9 (ergon). It CAN mean toiling for pay, but it can also mean any act. Your definition applied to Eph. 2:9 makes Paul look like an idiot, because no one ever had said that Heaven is gained by toiling for pay. That's ridiculous. To my knowledge that was NEVER taught anywhere. Why would Paul bring it up now? He wouldn't, because he didn't.
Just the fact that you discuss "counting love works" shows that you are misunderstanding the whole point of love. Love doesn't "count" how many times you did "x" or how many times you sacrificed for the sake of the other.
If God judges us for Heaven based on our actions of love, then how is this determination made without consideration to quality or quantity (as I said before)? You don't have to know for sure, I'm just asking for a logical possibility that doesn't amount to quid pro quo, i.e. "earning", "meriting", or barter.
God uses our response to determine whether we actually believe Him, whether we trust Him, whether we love Him. Our response is measured by our actions, not by our words.
OK, so you acknowledge that for Heaven God MEASURES. THAT'S what I want to know more about. :) How is this done?
We can know about ourselves, but some thought will indicate that even THIS knowledge is not assured knowledge that we will enter heaven. It is GOD who makes such decisions, not our own self.
Yes, only God makes these decisions. The belief is in whether the specific promises God makes in scripture lead to assurance or to uncertainty. I suppose before going further, I would have to ask you to define your use of "assured knowledge" as you say above.
You are making your own feelings of yourself the determinant on whether you are entering heaven and yet you hold to God's sovereignty? It sounds like YOU are determining whether you are going to heaven, not God.
No, my "testimony" determines nothing. My testimony follows what God has already ordained. What matters is that the Spirit testifies:
Rom 8:15-16 : 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
-----------------------------
And secondly, IF God has already decided on who will be saved, then your actions are meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Not true. ALL of my actions are part of God's eternal plan, therefore they have meaning. My free will actions do not determine my salvation, but they still have meaning because God has ordained them as important to His good, pleasing, and perfect will.
FK: "Yes, we place our hope in Christ, and part of that hope is in that the words Christ spoke were true. If they were, then we are told that we may be sure of our salvation and have confidence in Him during our lives that He is good for His word."
And what is His Word? Believe in Him 20 years ago and you will enter heaven? I haven't found that quote yet.
I haven't found it either, which is why I neither said what you are thinking nor implied it. There is no "rule" that we are given to know when someone has fallen away permanently such that he never truly believed in the first place. I don't make that judgment. Jesus says:
John 10:27-29 : 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
Now, I know what this means to me. :) If the Apostolic lens alters this to mean that anyone, instead of no one, can snatch himself out of God's hands, then that is the Apostolic lens. If, however, the words of Jesus are true as they appear in scripture, then we may have assurance, etc.
It appears that Jesus desires that we believe in Him every day and to obey the Father's Will everyday to be saved. It seems that HE that endures will be saved. It doesn't say that "If Jesus endures to the end".
I fully agree.
God is not judged, man's endurance is judged.
But not based on anything like merit of course. :)