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To: monkfan; kosta50; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; wmfights; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; irishtenor; ...
"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head." -- Romans 12:20

Consider, for a moment, that this proverb dates back to a time when keeping warm typically involved lighting something on fire.

Lighting some thing on fire, not someone.

So, figuratively speaking, you toss coals on someone's head, you warm them up. And that is a good thing.

LOL. Wow. I think you've really missed the point of this verse if you think pouring "coals of fire" on someone's head is an act of kindness.

Let's see the context of the verse...

"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." -- Romans 12:19-21

Paul is saying retribution is God's domain and not ours. And because all things work for the good of those who love Him, God's retribution will make even more evident the depths of the sin of our persecutors by comparison.

By repaying our enemies with kindness, we show God we trust Him to deal with law-breakers.

And He most certainly will -- by "heaping holes of fire on their heads."

Frankly, I don't think I've ever heard a verse so misunderstood as your take on this one.

Of course I guess if you insist on thinking God loves everyone, then floods, pestilence, disease and destruction are all divine love tokens, too, and not a result of God's wrath.

Remind me never to tell you I'm feeling a little chilly. 8~)

6,300 posted on 09/14/2007 11:03:37 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Excellent reply, dear sister in Christ! Thank you so much for sharing the full passage and for your insights.
6,305 posted on 09/15/2007 8:03:47 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; monkfan; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; wmfights; blue-duncan; MarkBsnr; D-fendr
Paul is saying retribution is God's domain and not ours

Now, Christians of all times have given only lip service to this idea, haven't they? In fact, those who advocate such a thing are often refrered to as Democrats!

And He most certainly will -- by "heaping holes of fire on their heads."

If they desrerve it in God's eyes! As it is suggested in various places in the Bible, God sees things differently then we do.

St. Paul is saying for us not to return evil for evil, asnd to let God decide if those who trespass agianst us need to have hot coals poured on their heads. But, of course, Paul is presenting an angry wrathful God of the Old Testament. The fire and brimstone God of the Protestant persuasion that is the root cause of European atheism, and elsewhere.

6,310 posted on 09/15/2007 10:38:42 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; Alamo-Girl
Indeed, the Greek for "burning coals" is our English word anthrax, so might be whence comes our saying "a pox upon him",lol. At any rate I think the burning coals are meant to represent God's wrath.
6,312 posted on 09/15/2007 10:48:00 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Paul is saying retribution is God's domain and not ours. And because all things work for the good of those who love Him, God's retribution will make even more evident the depths of the sin of our persecutors by comparison.

Exactly!

The reason people misunderstand the verse is because they impose their own theology on it and ignore what the verse actually says.

Compare it to what James writes,

For he shall have judgement without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; (Ja.2:13)

If you want mercy, you had better show it, so by showing mercy to those who don't deserve it, we receive it, and they receive the fruit of their own cruel unforgiving acts.

Just as is depicted in the parable of the King who forgave the great debt, and the one forgiven would not forgive the little debt owed to him. (Mt.18:23-35)

6,314 posted on 09/15/2007 11:03:38 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50
Lighting some thing on fire, not someone.

It's an hyperbole. A figure of speech. But I repeat myself.

Let's see the context of the verse...

If you are sincerely interested in context, you need to at least start at verse 9. That's where Paul starts this particular line of thinking, and what he says from that point sets the tone for the verses in question. Better yet, just read chapter 12 in it's entirety. But if not, at least go back to verse 9.

9) Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.
10) Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;
11) not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
12) rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;
13) distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
14) Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
15) Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.
16) Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
17) Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.
18) If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.
19) Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance in Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.
20) Therefore

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink.
For in so doing you will heap
coals of fire on his head"

21) Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Now, if you are determined to believe that the quoted proverb in verse 20 was intended to emphasis God's wrath on your enemy, as mentioned in 19, then a link between 19 and 20 will appear plain as day. But if you were to interpret the proverb as I do, that benevolence can break the cycle of violence, then the link simply isn't there. In other words, the link you point out between 19 and 20 only appears to be there because you interpret the heaping of coals to be an act of hostility. Since you need to prove your interpretation to prove the link, you can't use the link to prove your interpretation; circular reasoning.

So, this is where the other verses come in handy. We can look at the tone of the message Paul is sending. He say be good to each other; be good like this; be good like that. Be good and let God handle the enemy. Your interpretation has Paul advising them to be good to their enemy so their enemy will suffer. That's disturbing. I think you mistake Paul for Poe (as in Edgar Allan). Verse 14 says "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse." But you insist that Paul turns around 180 degrees and tells us to do 'good' so as to bring a curse on the enemy's head.

And He most certainly will -- by "heaping holes of fire on their heads."

Sounds like a curse alright.

Frankly, I don't think I've ever heard a verse so misunderstood as your take on this one.

Should I be surprised?

Of course I guess if you insist on thinking God loves everyone, then floods, pestilence, disease and destruction are all divine love tokens, too, and not a result of God's wrath.

Yes and no, but another subject for another day.

Remind me never to tell you I'm feeling a little chilly. 8~)

Apparently, if I were still a member of the PCA, your fears might be justified. :P

6,335 posted on 09/15/2007 4:42:06 PM PDT by monkfan
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