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To: kosta50; blue-duncan; xzins; P-Marlowe; irishtenor; Alamo-Girl; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; ...
He loves the saved and the condemned equally.

Spoken like a true humanist.

Scripture says otherwise. God loves righteousness and hates sin. And those not acquitted by Christ's work on the cross on their behalf remain condemned in their sins.

God does not love sin.

"If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:

For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee." -- Proverbs 25:21-22


"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head." -- Romans 12:20

Is the act of "heaping coals of fire" on someone's head a pleasant thing? Something God would do to one whom He loves?

"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." -- Psalm 5:5

"But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." -- Luke 13:27

acquittal and condemnation become oxymorons.

Nope. They become what they've always been -- God's immutable, perfect, holy, predestining and transformative will from before the foundation of the world, according to His purpose in creation. It all revolves around a correct understanding of justification -- salvation is not due to what we do, but what Christ did.

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH
Chapter XI
Of Justification

"I. Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies;[1] not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,[2] they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.[3]

II. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification:[4] yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love.[5]

III. Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are thus justified, and did make a proper, real and full satisfaction to His Father's justice in their behalf.[6] Yet, in as much as He was given by the Father for them;[7] and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead;[8] and both, freely, not for any thing in them; their justification is only of free grace;[9] that both the exact justice, and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.[10]

IV. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect,[11] and Christ did, in the fullness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification:[12] nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit does, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.[13]

V. God does continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified;[14] and although they can never fall from the sate of justification,[15] yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.[16]

VI. The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.[17]


6,164 posted on 09/13/2007 12:31:26 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50; blue-duncan; xzins; P-Marlowe; irishtenor; Col Freeper; Forest Keeper; ...
Truly said, dear sister in Christ. Thank you!

Indeed. On his own strength, man is hopeless before God:

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. – John 3:18

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. – Romans 3:10-11

But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. – Isaiah 64:6

Our salvation, even our love for Him, is a gift from God:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. – John 6:44

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

We love him, because he first loved us. – I John 4:19

And “all that there is” moves from the beginning to the end, from First Cause to Final Cause, Alpha to Omega:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Col 1:15-20

It is absurd to think that a mere mortal could somehow merit God's love - much less by his own efforts become a member of His family forever more. If it were possible, then Christ died for nothing.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. – Galatians 2:21

That is a Spiritual Truth we are to learn from the law. (Romans 7) No one can ever be “good enough” – and the more we understand the law, the more clearly our sins stand in evidence against us. But Christ has set us free from the law of sin and death!

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. – Romans 8:1-4

Maranatha, Jesus!

6,167 posted on 09/13/2007 1:02:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; xzins; P-Marlowe; MarkBsnr; Alamo-Girl; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; D-fendr
Kosta: He loves the saved and the condemned equally.

Dr.E: Spoken like a true humanist.

"Love your enemies" (I guess Christ spoke like a real humanist for your taste).

But then there are Paulines and there are Christians...

"If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee." -- Proverbs 25:21-22

"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head." -- Romans 12:20

Is this something Christ would say?

"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." -- Psalm 5:5

Yet He saves them!

"But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." -- Luke 13:27

And here I was under the impression that our destiny is not work-related, but rather pre-determined before we even existed, let alone sinned.

It all revolves around a correct understanding of justification -- salvation is not due to what we do, but what Christ did

Then your own verse above (Luke 13:27), i.e. "workers of iniquity," makes no sense, especially in view of the fact that the Bible is clear that we will be judged according to what we do (that would be our deeds).

6,208 posted on 09/13/2007 11:08:15 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50
"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head." -- Romans 12:20
Is the act of "heaping coals of fire" on someone's head a pleasant thing?

It is if you like being warm at night. Consider, for a moment, that this proverb dates back to a time when keeping warm typically involved lighting something on fire. So, figuratively speaking, you toss coals on someone's head, you warm them up. And that is a good thing. You repay your enemy with kindness and God rewards you for your act of charity.

In Romans 12:9-21, Paul makes the point that we should be consistently good and, in keeping with that, not return evil with evil but with good. The idea that this action (re: coals) will cause harm to the person is inconsistent with the rest of what was said.

In any case, whatever Paul preaches, it must be consistent with this:

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

(Matthew 5:43-48, NKJV)

6,288 posted on 09/14/2007 6:40:34 PM PDT by monkfan
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