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To: fortheDeclaration
Let's start with a pedantic quibble! That'll be fun, class, right? Well here it is:

They were calling God "immutable" before Webster was a gleam in his daddy's eye. Heck, they were calling Him immutable before English was a gleam in the OED's eye! or Shakespeare's eye!

That is my silly way of saying what somebody else said, namely: words like Passion and immutable are almost "terms of art' in theology, and a great part of the problem is vocabulary, I'd guess.

Similarly with "pleased" and "pleasure". In the quote you offer we got "ευδοκησα". I haul out the Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich and I find .... uh .... ευδοκεω to no one's surprise. And the first meaning is "consider good, consent, determine" and the second is, wait for it ... " be well pleased, take delight" and they show a number of places in the LXX where it means for God to take pleasure in someone.

Thou payest thy money and thou takest thy choice, I guess.

Anytime a Christian is not bearing the fruits of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23), he is sinning.

One is either in the Spirit or in the Flesh. (Rom.6)
Yeah, but I don't get the relevance. I bear some of my best fruits when I don't feel like it.

Nothing ever happens to God, God allows certain things to occur,...

Here's where we need some serious front porch with lemonade time. To me the phrase "happens to God" would include the things He allows to happen to Him (Which would be the only things that could "happen to" Him.) I'm guessing you are using the phrase to include something like "without His consent" and "catches Him by surprise" (which seems to be the Process theology stand and the main part of why I dumped Process Theology. I couldn't wrap my mind around God saying,"Son of GUN! Look at THAT! Who'da thunk it?!)

But more to the point, and this is coming together in a way, am I correct in understanding you to say that nothing "happens to" God unless He willed it first? Would that be an acceptable formulation?

Let me parse my "model" for passion, and then distinguish it from what I think you are saying:

I walk along the store fronts in the Mall. I am dieting (as always) I pass the Ice Cream Sundae store. Without my permission, my mouth waters, and images and recollections of previous Sundaes dance in my head.

My thitherto manly and purposeful stride visibly falters. Thoughts of whatever trinket I was about to buy from Radio Shack suddenly fade. My steps slow and I turn ninety degrees and assume an attitude of thoughtfulness. "After all," I say, "A geegaw from Radio shack is but a means to an end, while a Hot Fudge Sundae on coffee ice cream with marshmallow AND whipped Cream is an end in itself!" All recollection of the frustration I underwent when trying to fasten the trouser button that morning have fled from my mind. Luther hovers before my inner eye, whispering,"Sin boldly!" ....

(This is why I avoid malls ...) But I'm facetiously trying to convey how passion among human type personnel clouds the intellect, damages memory, impedes judgment, and weakens the entire apparatus of will. It USES intellective and volitional tools, like memory and imagination, but what I am chiefly remembering is the delight of my mouth and the experience of the wonderful and addictive insulin rush we get when we carb out.

You Protestants may mock us "idolatrous" Catholics with our jujus and amulets, but I gotta tell you, my miraculous medal bumping up against my sternum or the little cross I keep in my pocket has more than once reminded me that I can call on Divine assistance and get help remembering that it is better to enter heaven with no tummy at all than with a 44 inch waist and a smile on my lips to go to perdition ...

On the other hand, and this is still about passion, I have found that when I am at the range (on a good day) I can send six rounds into the COM of my Q target fairly well when I do so dispassionately. But to send them in FAST, I have to whip up some anger. I have to tense my muscles, and imagine that target is shooting at me. When I'm done, there's a grimace on my face, and i have to calm down a little.

So for us humans, passion is energetic, but the energy can work with or against our will and better judgment.

For the redeemed I suppose we can look forward to having our "affections" line up with our will. And while we would say God is perfect Will, I take it you would say that God has "feelings", but they are always aligned with His will and responsive to it, and NOT spontaneous or arising from who knows where, as human feelings can be.

AM I close?

6,134 posted on 09/13/2007 6:06:37 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

I don’t know if you’re close, but I sure enjoyed that little truth missive!


6,144 posted on 09/13/2007 9:27:09 AM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support. Defend life support for others in the womb.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Let's start with a pedantic quibble! That'll be fun, class, right? Well here it is: They were calling God "immutable" before Webster was a gleam in his daddy's eye. Heck, they were calling Him immutable before English was a gleam in the OED's eye! or Shakespeare's eye! That is my silly way of saying what somebody else said, namely: words like Passion and immutable are almost "terms of art' in theology, and a great part of the problem is vocabulary, I'd guess. Similarly with "pleased" and "pleasure". In the quote you offer we got "ευδοκησα". I haul out the Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich and I find .... uh .... ευδοκεω to no one's surprise. And the first meaning is "consider good, consent, determine" and the second is, wait for it ... " be well pleased, take delight" and they show a number of places in the LXX where it means for God to take pleasure in someone. Thou payest thy money and thou takest thy choice, I guess.

And when you read those words you are reading them in English and thus, that is the language we think in.

Now, the point of the definition of immutable was to show that it didn't mean immobile only that all of God's attributes are never compromised, that is can change or be lessoned.

All of those attributes work in perfect harmony with one another, so the essential point of immutability is the fact that the perfect harmony of God's Person can never be compromised, not that His Perfection paralyzes Him.

[ Anytime a Christian is not bearing the fruits of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23), he is sinning. ]

One is either in the Spirit or in the Flesh. (Rom.6) Yeah, but I don't get the relevance. I bear some of my best fruits when I don't feel like it.

You only bear fruit when it is God producing them, that is when you under control by God and not your flesh.

So, your feelings are irrelevant to what is being produced, you may actually be physically ill at the time.

[ Nothing ever happens to God, God allows certain things to occur,... ]

Here's where we need some serious front porch with lemonade time. To me the phrase "happens to God" would include the things He allows to happen to Him (Which would be the only things that could "happen to" Him.) I'm guessing you are using the phrase to include something like "without His consent" and "catches Him by surprise" (which seems to be the Process theology stand and the main part of why I dumped Process Theology. I couldn't wrap my mind around God saying,"Son of GUN! Look at THAT! Who'da thunk it?!) But more to the point, and this is coming together in a way, am I correct in understanding you to say that nothing "happens to" God unless He willed it first? Would that be an acceptable formulation?

Yes, nothing happens unless God has willed it to happen, and it either falls under His 'directive will' (those things God wants to happen and in accordance with His Plan) and 'Permissive will', )those things that God allows to happen even though they go against His own directive will-like sin.)

Let me parse my "model" for passion, and then distinguish it from what I think you are saying: I walk along the store fronts in the Mall. I am dieting (as always) I pass the Ice Cream Sundae store. Without my permission, my mouth waters, and images and recollections of previous Sundaes dance in my head. My thitherto manly and purposeful stride visibly falters. Thoughts of whatever trinket I was about to buy from Radio Shack suddenly fade. My steps slow and I turn ninety degrees and assume an attitude of thoughtfulness. "After all," I say, "A geegaw from Radio shack is but a means to an end, while a Hot Fudge Sundae on coffee ice cream with marshmallow AND whipped Cream is an end in itself!" All recollection of the frustration I underwent when trying to fasten the trouser button that morning have fled from my mind. Luther hovers before my inner eye, whispering,"Sin boldly!" .... (This is why I avoid malls ...) But I'm facetiously trying to convey how passion among human type personnel clouds the intellect, damages memory, impedes judgment, and weakens the entire apparatus of will. It USES intellective and volitional tools, like memory and imagination, but what I am chiefly remembering is the delight of my mouth and the experience of the wonderful and addictive insulin rush we get when we carb out. You Protestants may mock us "idolatrous" Catholics with our jujus and amulets, but I gotta tell you, my miraculous medal bumping up against my sternum or the little cross I keep in my pocket has more than once reminded me that I can call on Divine assistance and get help remembering that it is better to enter heaven with no tummy at all than with a 44 inch waist and a smile on my lips to go to perdition ... On the other hand, and this is still about passion, I have found that when I am at the range (on a good day) I can send six rounds into the COM of my Q target fairly well when I do so dispassionately. But to send them in FAST, I have to whip up some anger. I have to tense my muscles, and imagine that target is shooting at me. When I'm done, there's a grimace on my face, and i have to calm down a little. So for us humans, passion is energetic, but the energy can work with or against our will and better judgment. For the redeemed I suppose we can look forward to having our "affections" line up with our will. And while we would say God is perfect Will, I take it you would say that God has "feelings", but they are always aligned with His will and responsive to it, and NOT spontaneous or arising from who knows where, as human feelings can be. AM I close?

Close, but not exactly on target.

While it is true that God's feelings are not spontaneous, (since He always knows what is going to occur) the essential issue is that they are never dealing with anything negative on His part.

God never deals with doing something that would be anything less then Perfect.

God's passions come into play in that He loves and in giving happiness to others, has pleasure in doing so.

As for your piece of medal on your chest, the Bible says, 'thy word have I hid in my heart that I may not sin against thee' (Ps.119:11)

That is what keeps you away from sin, God's word.

6,204 posted on 09/13/2007 10:46:27 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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