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To: Forest Keeper; D-fendr; blue-duncan; MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg
Yes, but I don't see the point you are trying to make. I was asking you if you thought that the time of death for most/all people was random

It could be. That changes nothing as far as your ultimate state is concerned, does it? So, to claim that somehow your moment of death is ordained is a conjecture. We could say that God knows when it will be, but that the actual cause may be circumstantial.

Ah, so parents make us

Yes, according to the laws of nature God created. Is God still creating or did He finish the job the first time? Yes, we know mountains erode and glaciers carve the landscape. Is that God doing it or the laws of nature playing themselves out?

You get the idea. God is the author and maker of every life

Yes He created all life initially then stopped creating. From then on, life begets life.

John 11:35 Jesus wept. 36 Then the Jews said, "See how he loved him!"

I hope you understand that this doesn't make any sense (just one of verses!). He knew that He would raise Lazarus, so why would He be weeping over him? Just because everyone else was crying?

However, apparently God DOES care if we benefit or not because we experience that He blesses us all the time

What's so "apparent" about it?  It's all about His purpose or His will for that matter and if we happen to be the recipients of His favor than we are just "lucky" I guess, since He already decided who will be happy and who will roast, right? In other words, if it's pleasure, it by luck on our part, and pleasure on His part.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. [Rim 8-28]

This suggests that God is not impartial and that He can be swayed by those who love Him because they love Him! It also asserts that only the good have been called to His purpose. Does that mean that Judas, Pharaoh and other popular biblical villains have bypassed His purpose and were acting on their own, and contrary to His will? Otherwise they need "credit" too because without the villains the God of the Reformed created His plan would "stuck."

6,123 posted on 09/12/2007 10:59:26 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; D-fendr; blue-duncan; MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; Alamo-Girl
FK: "I was asking you if you thought that the time of death for most/all people was random."

It could be. That changes nothing as far as your ultimate state is concerned, does it? So, to claim that somehow your moment of death is ordained is a conjecture. We could say that God knows when it will be, but that the actual cause may be circumstantial.

It surely could change our ultimate state if it is possible that our physical deaths are random. The reason is that it would mean that the wonderful scripture that Dr. E. posted in her 6,066 would have to be all WRONG! :) (Job 14:5, Psalm 139:16, Acts 17:26, etc.) If those scriptures are wrong, then any scriptures can be wrong, and Christianity itself falls by default. No group of men could hold it together if their authorizing statute was just as suspect as the rest of scripture.

FK: "Ah, so parents make us."

Yes, according to the laws of nature God created. Is God still creating or did He finish the job the first time? Yes, we know mountains erode and glaciers carve the landscape. Is that God doing it or the laws of nature playing themselves out?

Of course God is still creating. Do you believe He operates at all within time, or does He just sit back and watch the show? If He does anything within time, then He also creates within time. You have already been showed the verses. Are ALL of them wrong? :) Kosta, I know you are not a Deist, but what do you make of this quote from John Orr (1934) "English Deism: Its Roots and Its Fruits."? (This is from the Wiki entry on Deism):

Both [theists and Deists] asserted belief in one supreme God, the Creator.... and agreed that God is personal and distinct from the world. But the theist taught that god remained actively interested in and operative in the world which he had made, whereas the Deist maintained that God endowed the world at creation with self-sustaining and self-acting powers and then abandoned it to the operation of these powers acting as second causes.

I mean, does this sound familiar? :)

[FK quoting:] John 11:35 Jesus wept. 36 Then the Jews said, "See how he loved him!"

I hope you understand that this doesn't make any sense (just one of verses!). He knew that He would raise Lazarus, so why would He be weeping over him? Just because everyone else was crying?

Did Jesus really experience what it was to be human?:

Heb 2:16-18 : 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Jesus experienced the loss of His friend, just as we do. It is more evidence that He understands all of our problems COMPLETELY, and is able to help us in every circumstance. ...... I also note that the verse you say makes no sense is a Gospel verse. :)

--------------------

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. [Rom 8-28]

This suggests that God is not impartial and that He can be swayed by those who love Him because they love Him! It also asserts that only the good have been called to His purpose. Does that mean that Judas, Pharaoh and other popular biblical villains have bypassed His purpose and were acting on their own, and contrary to His will? Otherwise they need "credit" too because without the villains the God of the Reformed created His plan would "stuck."

I don't see how any of that follows from the verse. It doesn't say that God is swayed, it states the fact that God works in ALL things for the good of His children. That is, He is not a part-timer, but rather a full-time God. He is active rather than passive. Who does He do this good for? Those He has called according to His purpose. God is in full control.

There is NO assertion at all that only the good have been called. You have it backwards. Only sinners are called. EVER. ...... None of the Biblical villains you mention have bypassed God's purpose. God has used them FOR His purpose. They deserve no credit because they did nothing in obedience to God. They just followed their own fallen natures. What credit is deserving for that?

6,277 posted on 09/14/2007 4:16:50 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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