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To: kosta50; D-fendr; blue-duncan; irishtenor
FK: "Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought you said at one time that it was our sin that caused our physical death. If so, then why do some of the worst sinners live to ripe old ages, and some who have never sinned, in addition to some of the greatest warriors for Christ die young?"

Elder Cleopa once wrote a short story illustrating this apparent paradox, but I can't find it. The short of it is that we don't know who is guilty and who is not. Outward appearances mean nothing. They can be as misleading as ever.

In that case, based on results, would it be fair to assume that those who die young are greater sinners than those who live to old age? I just can't imagine anyone thinking that. You brought up the Mother Theresa example. Do you assume that her faith was strong and genuine BECAUSE she lived to an old age?

If I find Elder Cleopa's story I will freepmail it to you.

Thank you. I would be happy to read it.

Maybe those of us who reach ripe old age are the most recalcitrant and sinful of all, "slow" in attaining sanctity, and are given extra time to compete the journey. Some make it other's don't.

But that would appear to thwart the idea that sin causes physical death. It is a paradox indeed.

The problem (and that explains the anger) is that the west always treated physical death as punishment from God, and not a consequence of our sin.

I would fully agree that physical death is certainly no punishment for the elect. But for the same reason, I can't see it as being a consequence of sin. Going to Heaven would be like a "promotion", so wouldn't it seem like God was "rewarding" sin?

5,720 posted on 09/08/2007 3:21:36 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; D-fendr; blue-duncan; irishtenor; MarkBsnr
In that case, based on results, would it be fair to assume that those who die young are greater sinners than those who live to old age?

Actually,  Cleopa is saying that perhaps our time of death has nothing to do with our state of the soul. It could be no different than what we choose to have for breakfast. Perhaps to God, our time of death is irrelevant, except for those elect who have been chosen for a specific purpose (prophets, apostles, etc.).

We have examples of good people living into he ripe old age and also some very mean people too. Likewise, we see wonderful people die in their youth, and the same among those who are not.

You brought up the Mother Teresa example. Do you assume that her faith was strong and genuine BECAUSE she lived to an old age?

Of course not.

But that would appear to thwart the idea that sin causes physical death

How so? Did not Adam live to be over 900 years old? His soul died the day he ate the fruit (as the Lord said it would), but his body lived in sin for a long time, longer than any other human being I think.

I would fully agree that physical death is certainly no punishment for the elect

Then why don't they celebrate when someone dies? Why don't they lead lives that promote brevity of life on earth, or just have somebody shoot them?

But for the same reason, I can't see it as being a consequence of sin

If it was good enough for Adam, it's good enough for the Protestant "elect." You have Adam's nature, it's called mortal. We all die because Adam sinned.

Going to Heaven would be like a "promotion", so wouldn't it seem like God was "rewarding" sin?

When Christ assumed the sin of the world, He died in His human nature. In His human nature, He even felt that separation from God when we sin by saying "why have You forsaken me?"

Mortality is human nature due to sin. It's not a reward or punishment; it's a consequence.

5,724 posted on 09/08/2007 6:27:39 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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