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To: Forest Keeper
Everything that happens is by God's will, but not necessarily by God's last action. However, in the way you are framing the issue you merely assign this responsibility to God, on our behalf, but you do not explain how it works

You are not explaining anything either, FK. You are simply telling me "how" it is. That's the problem: it's a personal conviction, not absolute truth.

For example, it sounds very much like you are saying that the mere act of creation puts an obligation on God to offer salvation to all

You keep repeating this. No one ever puts any obligation on God. The Bible says He came to save the world. You are telling me it says He came to save the elect. We are reading the same text and we are reading it differently.

God is responsible for all who are not saved

No, because Christ made it possible for the world to be saved. He fulfilled His promise. But that act doesn't force anyone to come to Him. The fact that so many choose to reject Him does not place an obligation on God. It places the responsibility on us (humans), and it also assures that those whom come to God come to Him on their own free will and are not forced or programmed into "loving" God.

No, you jump from God is in control directly to God forces us to do evil. That is a false conclusion. God is in control means He gets what He wants

Then your theology makes God ordain and desire evil.

People make their own decisions to sin

You keep repeating this like a robot, FK, no offense please. If God is in control then everything you do, including sinning, is by His will and not by yours. So, please don't bring "free will" here.

Consider the alternative that you are defending, which is, that man thwarts God's will, or that God doesn't care enough to have a will. That would be a very weak God in my book

We thwart His desire (that all men to be saved) when we sin. He allows it. Love must be free. Otherwise He is the author of sin.

And so your analogy fails. Why is it impossible for God to simply leave people to their own sinful natures?

If God controls and is the cause of their sinful nature then leaving them to their own sinful nature is an oxymoron in the context of your question. Remember: we are preprogrammed to every step. God programmed everything. he made the movie. No changes are possible. So, if you sin, it's because God assigned you to sin. If you go to hell it's because God "convicted" you before the movie even started.

No, this is your interpretation of scripture you already believe to be false on its face

Yeah, right, FK. The verse says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It doesn't say God let Pharaoh exercise his sinful nature...

Wages are earned, not given out as a gift or curse

We earn our damnation because we choose to sin. When we choose to cleave to God and obey His will He saves us. Your theology actually invalidates both. In your (so-called Reformed) theology, God preordained everything to the "t" and all we do is just play our part in the movie. No one earns anything. It's all given.

5,627 posted on 09/07/2007 8:56:38 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; hosepipe
You are not explaining anything either, FK. You are simply telling me "how" it is. That's the problem: it's a personal conviction, not absolute truth.

But isn't the only absolute truth for you whatever the Church says? You're asking me for something I don't have. My absolute truth is the scriptures, so we disagree on what the term even means. :)

FK: "For example, it sounds very much like you are saying that the mere act of creation puts an obligation on God to offer salvation to all."

You keep repeating this. No one ever puts any obligation on God.

Good, then please accept that it is not part of our theology. :)

Then your theology makes God ordain and desire evil.

Did God ordain and desire the evil of the crucifixion, or was Christ overwhelmed by the power of men?

FK: "Why is it impossible for God to simply leave people to their own sinful natures?"

If God controls and is the cause of their sinful nature then leaving them to their own sinful nature is an oxymoron in the context of your question.

God is the first cause of everything and Adam was the last cause of our sinful nature. There is no oxymoron here. Therefore, our sinful natures ARE our own and we are responsible.

Yeah, right, FK. The verse says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It doesn't say God let Pharaoh exercise his sinful nature...

Both are true at the same time. God withdrew grace (or stopped supplying it) thus He "hardened". Pharaoh was then free to exercise his free will to even worse results.

5,778 posted on 09/09/2007 2:20:26 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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