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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; irishtenor
FK, you keep using circular logic. Those who don't believe don't believe because God didn't give them the faith according to your (Reformed) theology. So, why, then, are they "condemned" for the lack of faith?

No, you are again missing the root cause, which is that a person doesn't believe because He rejects Christ. You are again placing an artificial duty upon God to give the person the faith to accept, and then you transfer the blame to Him, on my side's behalf of course. It is your side that straps God down to your rules and regulations of fairness, justice, whatever. WE do not do that. A person doesn't believe because He rejects Christ. All of us would be so condemned, but for God, under no obligation from the Apostolic Church or anyone else, choosing to save some.

5,366 posted on 09/04/2007 4:37:33 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; irishtenor
No, you are again missing the root cause, which is that a person doesn't believe because He rejects Christ

Goodness, FK, I am beginning to believe that you really can't see the folly in your own words, no offense intended. If they don't believe (i.e. If they "experience" that they are rejecting Chirst) it is by God's will and not their own according to the Reformed theology.

So, in reality, they are not rejecting Christ, but are forced by God to reject Christ (even though they "experience"—rather they are being deceived, by whom, by God?—that it is by their free will).

If God is in control and we have no free will then God moves us and God makes our decisions; we are puppets and He is the puppet master. All the strings are His. And what we do is strict obedience to God's will, no matter if it's good or evil.

You "figured out" that in the case of Pharaoh all he had to do is let Pharaoh to his own devices and he knew the Pharaoh would not relent. But that flies in the face of your Reformed theology.

If God is always in control, then we can't do anything on our own, whether it's good or evil. The sin of omission is not an option here. Puppets on the string do nothing unless the puppet master pulls their strings.

But the Bible says that God specifically hardened the Pharaoh's heart so that he would not relent. So, it was not the Pharaoh's own decision, but God's. By this logic, Judas and Hitler were simply obedient God's servants.

This is not the Christ we know from the Gospels. In your faith, the only root cause if God, even of evil. In Catholic/Orthodox Churches God did not create sin, death and evil. He did not ordain it. God is Life; He gives and creates life. God did not create death. Death is corruption. God creates nothing that is corrupt.

5,397 posted on 09/04/2007 11:05:45 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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