[Alamo-Girl]

If y'all don't mind, I'd like to add a few tidbits to this discussion of the spiritual status of newborns...

Condemned is our natural state of being – no creature has a "right" to be an eternal member of God’s family in the new heaven and earth – the Final Cause for this heaven and earth. Family membership is a gift of God.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. – John 3:18

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. - Romans 8:14-17

This heaven and earth and every thing and every one in it is destined to fire – for the non-physical spirit of a man who is not redeemed, that fire is called the second death.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. [literally muwth muwth or death death] – Genesis 2:17

Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. – Revelation 20:14

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. – Revelation 6:12-14

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God [is] a consuming fire. – Hebrews 12:25-29

Side note: a scientist who is Christian might see this as God suddenly increasing the density of the universe to be greater than the critical density, i.e. the Big Crunch.]

But when we receive Jesus Christ, He redeems us from that second death (Isaiah 53) – and we are reborn even while yet in the flesh - as members of the family to live with God forever more in the new heaven and earth.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. – John 3:5-6

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Col 3:3

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. - I John 3:14

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. – Galatians 2:20

Moreover, God is merciful and compassionate according to His own will. So persons – whether unborn children, the young, mentally or physically handicapped, or those who did not hear The Word of God, Jesus Christ, in this mortal life – are not without hope:

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. – Romans 9:15

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. – Matthew 18:10

Those who have no hope are those who heard The Word of God and rejected Him:

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. – John 12:47-48

We should also remember that we mortals are denizens of space/time. We each travel a personal worldline and we experience life like an actor in a movie, one frame at a time.

A being outside of space/time would see the entire movie of our lives – start to finish.

But more importantly, space and time are part of the Creation – not a property or limitation of the Creator. He would see “all that there is” all at once.

So, in other words, there is no injustice in His loving Jacob and hating Esau from their mother’s womb:

(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. – Romans 9:11-16

So again, concerning those who never – for whatever reason – heard the Word of God in this mortal life (e.g. the still born) - there is hope:

For there is no respect of persons with God.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. – Romans 2:11-16

Here is my favorite summation of what "all that there is" is all "about:"

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Col 1:15-20

To God be the glory!

[hosepipe]

[.. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. – Romans 9:15 ..]

Exactly.. For all those that see themselves as more merciful than "GOD" LoL.. I say be careful.. AND to all those that "observe" the Bible and say they know God and his Plans I recommend caution..

WHAT IF HELL were to become not nearly the BAD place our imaginations imagined.. and HEAVEN NOT the good fleshly paradise some want and desire.. I propose caution.. Could be that HELL IS WHAT some thought HEAVEN was; and heaven is so much BETTER than that, there are no mere words to explain it.. No words to approach what the heavens is/are..

There could be degrees of HELL and degrees of HEAVEN.. It also be true that Heaven and Hell are biblical metaphors of something ELSE.... You know, as ALL metaphors are, words that speak of something ELSE.. What ELSE?.. Well its like a birthday present, we'll have to wait to find out..

Is GOD a good present giver, OR WHAT?.. Children of God can understand that, rational thinking adults may not..

Welcome to my sandbox..

[MHGinTN]

Selah

[blue-duncan]

“If y’all don’t mind, I’d like to add a few tidbits to this discussion of the spiritual status of newborns...”

We usually think of the witness to God in terms of His “good” providence and rarely, if at all, in terms of the evidence of His continuing judgment on sin, operative on all creation, including man.

Rom 5:12-14, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law)Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression”

Rom 8:19-22, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain”

Act 14:17, “Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”

Act 17:26-27, “And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”

[Dr. Eckleburg]

What a beautiful and Scriptural understanding of God's will in His creation, A-G!

God tells us He determines the day we're born and the day we die...

"Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." -- Psalm 139:16

Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass" -- Job 14:5

"...(He) hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation" -- Acts 17:26

Therefore, we must conclude God gives us our children for as long as He determines we shall have them.

The glorious comfort for the believer is that our children are a part of His convenant, the seed to whom the promise was made.

"They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them." -- Isaiah 65:23

Like David, we know we will see them again...

"I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." -- 2 Samuel 12:23

The saddest, most unbearable pain in the world is losing a child. How do non-believers or those with no certain assurance cope? It must be dreadful.

What we know for certain is that God's election stands. I like what Warfied said concerning those who die in infancy...

"Their destiny is determined irrespective of their choice, by an unconditional decree of God, suspended for its execution on no act of their own; and their salvation is wrought by an unconditional application of the grace of Christ to their souls, through the immediate and irresistible operation of the Holy Spirit prior to and apart from any action of their own proper wills...

And if death in infancy does depend on God's providence, it is assuredly God in His providence who selects this vast multitude to be made participants of His unconditional salvation...

This is but to say that they are unconditionally predestinated to salvation from the foundation of the world. If only a single infant dying in irresponsible infancy be saved, the whole Arminian principle is traversed. If all infants dying such are saved, not only the majority of the saved, but doubtless the majority of the human race hitherto, have entered into life by a non-Arminian pathway."

As Warfield says, the salvation of even one infant proves the truth of God's perfect election, founded "not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Romans 9:16).