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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper

It just has to be that at least some babies are born guilty and moreso - fatally flawed, with an uncurable disease of evil, else the theology has God killing innocent little ones.

Even then, we have to be creative in reading Jesus’s words, else we end up with a God for whom it would be better if he was thrown into the sea with a millstone around his neck.

No, this cannot be. If you remove this petal, the TULIP collapses. It must be maintained.


5,160 posted on 09/01/2007 4:30:10 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr; Forest Keeper
It just has to be that at least some babies are born guilty and moreso - fatally flawed, with an incurable disease of evil, else the theology has God killing innocent little one

I guess it all goes to the creation of the souls.  Judaism shares pagan belief in the pre-existence of the souls.

The Orthodox, as far as I know, teach traducianism. The doctrine teaches that God created a soul of Adam and that through his soul all humans inherited the same life. Thus, when he fell, all the generations inherited a defective soul, corrupted by sin.

Correct me if I am wrong, it is my understanding that the Catholic teach creationism of the soul,  although the early Latin Church Fathers, especially St. Augustine, were leaning towards the former. The doctrine of creationism of the souls teaches that God creates a souls for each newly conceived human being.

Early Gnostics embraced the Judaic belief that all the souls were created before the foundation of the world.

Early Reformers, to the best of my knowledge, still maintained creationism doctrine of the souls, but some of the 21st century followers of Reformation, and most sects and cults that appear on these threads seem to embrace the Judeo-pagan belief of pre0-existing souls.

The early Church condemned Origen's and the Gnostic belief in the pre-existence of the souls because of its association with re-incarnation, which the Church rejects.

How do we end up with a defective soul? Obviously, the doctrine of the pre-existenceI of the souls and the doctrine of creationism implicitly suggest that God deliberately created or creates defective souls. Traduconism simply explains it by saying we are getting " by his transgression.

The Catholics, of course, do not believe that God creates defective souls with each conception, but do not offer an xcplanation at which moment does the soul of a new human being become defective.

The Protestants who believe in the pre-existence of the souls simply say that God ordained some to hell and some to heaven, then created all the souls, and predestined each human being with an "appropriate" ready-made soul, which is pulled off the heavenly storage shelf and "plugged" in at the moment of conception, or perhaps even at some other moment. 

From their mindset, it is perfectly just and proper for God to do that (neglecting to acknowledge that it is not characteristic of the revealed God in our lord Jesus Christ).

Moreover, the Reformed (Calvinists) cannot assume that a baby is innocent because the soul of the baby is already dead in sin.

5,162 posted on 09/01/2007 6:20:50 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: D-fendr; kosta50
It just has to be that at least some babies are born guilty and moreso - fatally flawed, with an uncurable disease of evil, else the theology has God killing innocent little ones.

What are you talking about? As a Catholic, do you believe in original sin or not? :)

5,352 posted on 09/03/2007 7:31:15 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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