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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; hosepipe; kosta50; D-fendr; MHGinTN; Elise; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; ...
can you explain why so many of the Apostles' powers were transferred, but curiously, the power to physically heal was not? I have said before that if all Apostolic priests and/or Bishops could heal, and no one else could, then I would probably convert instantly

Indeed, Christ gives the Apostles the power to "[h]eal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons."--Mat 10:8 

And after He left, the Apostles are said to have continued to use these healing powers. +Peter's shadow was enough to heal the sick, as were +Paul's napkins. These were the Apostolic "sign gifts" that identified them as Apostles.

However, as time progressed, the Apostles could no longer heal by all accounts. +Paul doesn't heal Timothy's stomach problems (1 Tim 5:23), but offers him more of a "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" advice. +Paul also could not  heal his friend (Phlp 2:26-27), but instead says that "God had mercy on him." Nor could +Paul heal himself (Galatians 4:13-15, 2 Corinthians 12:7-9).

Using your standards of "proof" then you should immediately dismiss +Paul as credible authority because he (and all the Apostles) eventually lost the power of miracles (assuming they had them to begin with).

Some would tell you that this was because the Church was beginning to take over the pastoral role of caring for the souls and well being of the faithful as the NT was being completed. But the Church did not inherit the "sign gifts" of the early Apostles. Rather the Apostles lost them before they died. Does that mean, the loss invalidated the Apostles authority and the Church to which their "keys" were transferred?

Relying on miracles is a double-edged sword. We could even use miracles as a standard measure by which we can prove that the Church failed, as you seem to imply: "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders"--2 Thess 2:9

Obviously those who perform miracles must be the "true" people of God, right? After all, the whole Bible is based on miracles and counter-miracles, God and Satan vying for a vote of confidence.

+Paul warns us (was it because his own healing powers were slipping?): "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness"--2 Cor 11:13-15

So, if you base your 'conversion' on who can heal and who can't, you are just as likely to believe Satan as you are God.

5,024 posted on 08/31/2007 6:12:24 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50

I hadn’t read your post yet re: healing.


5,030 posted on 08/31/2007 6:31:33 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: kosta50
[.. +Paul warns us (was it because his own healing powers were slipping?): "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness" ..]

SO then, this conversation is NOT merely about Sola Scriptura?.. I would have to agree.. There is more at stake here than semantics..

5,048 posted on 08/31/2007 9:41:07 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; hosepipe; D-fendr; MHGinTN; Elise; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; ...
However, as time progressed, the Apostles could no longer heal by all accounts. +Paul doesn't heal Timothy's stomach problems (1 Tim 5:23), but offers him more of a "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" advice. +Paul also could not heal his friend (Phlp 2:26-27), but instead says that "God had mercy on him." Nor could +Paul heal himself (Galatians 4:13-15, 2 Corinthians 12:7-9).

What accounts, these? How do you conclude that because they didn't, that they couldn't? That isn't indicated anywhere. You are inventing their motives. Wasn't the real point of healings to stir faith in the lost? In all four of your examples, the afflicted one was already a mature follower of Christ. Perhaps they believed it would have been a misuse of power, I don't know. It just seems to me to be too coincidental by half that all of the supernatural powers that the men of the Church have claimed to receive by Apostolic succession just so happen to be all the unprovable ones. :)

Using your standards of "proof" then you should immediately dismiss +Paul as credible authority because he (and all the Apostles) eventually lost the power of miracles (assuming they had them to begin with).

No, I assume that they did have the powers and kept them. I don't know if there is any scripture to the contrary, but that they didn't in some cases use thier powers does not cut it as meaning that they couldn't. Remember, Paul counted his affliction as a true blessing. If He healed himself (or was healed by another Apostle) then it would have been to counter God, in his mind.

Obviously those who perform miracles must be the "true" people of God, right?

True Apostles, yes. They performed miracles, and then they died.

+Paul warns us (was it because his own healing powers were slipping?): "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness"--2 Cor 11:13-15

Paul was exactly correct. Those who claim to have the powers of the Apostles are FALSE apostles, masquerading. :)

So, if you base your 'conversion' on who can heal and who can't, you are just as likely to believe Satan as you are God.

I couldn't base it on that because in today's times, no one, to my knowledge, can reliably heal.

5,235 posted on 09/02/2007 11:30:45 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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