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To: stfassisi
Dear Brother,you’re cherry picking as well.

I have not denied cherrypicking have you? I have suggested it is necessary to read the totality of Augustines works. In doing so you might find some writings which might have resulted in his death some years later. You have shown no evidence of looking at Augustine except through the eyes of prejudiced Apologists.

Yes, Augustine was a faithful, practicing Catholic. He was a member of a Church which hadn't yet attained worldly wealth and power and which was more open to ideas which might be seen to conflict with the party line.

It might be well for me to repeat my question:

Please reference Scripture which supports the Bodily Assumption Of Mary.

And your answer which I consider problematic.

Certainly!

Our Blessed Mother is the women in Rev 12:1. Mary is the women who clothed with sun. Our Blessed Mother is seen in her physical presence in Revelation 12:1.

There is a mountain of Scriptural typology to support the Catholic teaching on Mary as the New Eve,the Ark of the New Covenant and the Daughter of Zion.

Here is some of it... http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1908117/posts?page=172#172

First, quoting 4th century Fathers is hardly Scriptural support.

Second, It is problematic choosung Revelation 12 to support the Bodily Assumption Of Mary.

Revelation Chapter 12: (NAB)

1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.

3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems.

4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.

5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.

6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days. (6)

---------------------------------------------------------

Footnote [6] God protects the persecuted church in the desert, the traditional Old Testament place of refuge for the afflicted, according to the typology of the Exodus; see the note on Rev 11:2 <../revelation/revelation11.htm>.

Verse 6 shows it is the Church, not Mary, referenced in Revelation 12. Some, maybe even you, will continue to claim it is Mary but you are in the minority even in the Catholic Church.

10,903 posted on 11/11/2007 11:17:16 AM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

Verse 6 shows it is the Church, not Mary, referenced in Revelation 12. Some, maybe even you, will continue to claim it is Mary but you are in the minority even in the Catholic Church.

Dear Reggie, You don’t understand Catholicism ,Mary is also a type of the Church

from LUMEN GENTIUM

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

63. By reason of the gift and role of divine maternity, by which she is united with her Son, the Redeemer, and with His singular graces and functions, the Blessed Virgin is also intimately united with the Church. As St. Ambrose taught, the Mother of God is a type of the Church in the order of faith, charity and perfect union with Christ.(18*) For in the mystery of the Church, which is itself rightly called mother and virgin, the Blessed Virgin stands out in eminent and singular fashion as exemplar both of virgin and mother. (19*) By her belief and obedience, not knowing man but overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, as the new Eve she brought forth on earth the very Son of the Father, showing an undefiled faith, not in the word of the ancient serpent, but in that of God’s messenger. The Son whom she brought forth is He whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren,(299) namely the faithful, in whose birth and education she cooperates with a maternal love.””

As Saint Augustine puts it

The Woman signifies Mary, who, being spotless, brought forth our spotless Head. Who herself also showed forth in herself a figure of holy Church, so that as she in bringing forth a Son remained a Virgin, so the Church also should during the whole of time be bringing forth His members, and yet not lose her virgin estate.(Ibid, p. 269)

Archbishop Fulton Sheen explains Nuptials at the cross with the New Eve and how it is the beginning of the church

Here is a few excerpts

“We have the new Adam and the new Eve. Our Lord on the cross is the new Adam, the Blessed Mother at the foot of the cross is the new Eve. And we’re going to have the consummation of a marriage, and out of the consummated marriage of the new Adam and the new Eve is going to begin the new church of which John will be the symbol. And so the new Adam looking down now to the woman, says: “Woman, your son.” And to the son, he did not say “John” (he would have then been only the son of Zebedee), but “Son, your mother.” Here is the begetting of a new life. The Blessed Mother becomes the symbol of the church. And as Eve was the mother of the living, so Mary becomes the mother of the new living in the order of grace.”

Nuptials on the cross

From the cross our Lord looks down to his Blessed Mother and St. John, and he develops this new relationship in the kingdom of heaven. Now we’ve always thought, and rightly so, of Christ the Son on the cross and the mother beneath him. But that’s not the complete picture. That’s not the deep understanding. Who is our Lord on the cross? He’s the new Adam. Where’s the new Eve? At the foot of the cross. ...How did the old humanity begin? With the nuptials. How will the new humanity begin? With the nuptials. If Eve became the mother of the living in the natural order, is not this woman at the foot of the cross to become another mother? And so the bridegroom looks down at the bride. He looks at his beloved. Christ looks at his church. There is here the birth of the church.
As St. Augustine puts it, and here I am quoting him verbatim, “The heavenly bridegroom left the heavenly chambers, with the presage of the nuptials before him. He came to the marriage bed of the cross, a bed not of pleasure, but of pain, united himself with the woman, and consummated the union forever. As it were, the blood and water that came from the side of Christ was the spiritual seminal fluid. And so from this nuptials “Woman, there’s your son” this is the beginning of the church.


10,908 posted on 11/11/2007 1:03:23 PM PST by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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