[stfassisi]

“”As Augustine’s stated; it all goes back to the scriptures,””

Blessed Augustine relied on the Catholic Church.
Take a look...

“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the AUTHORITY of the CATHOLIC CHURCH.”
Against the Letter of Mani 5,6, 397 A.D.

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture BUT FROM TRADITION, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary COUNCILS, THE AUTHORITY OF WHICH IS QUITE VITAL TO THE CHURCH.”
Letter of Augustine to Januarius 54,1,1, 400 A.D.

“I believe that this practice comes from apostolic tradition, just as so many other practices NOT FOUND IN THEIR WRITINGS nor in the councils of their successors, but which, because they are kept by the whole Church everywhere, are believed to have been commended and handed down by the Apostles themselves.”
St. Augustine, Baptism 1,12,20, 400 A.D.

“What they found in the Church they kept; what they learned, they taught; what they received from the fathers, they handed on to the sons.”
St. Augustine, Against Julian, 2,10,33, 421 A.D.

“Since by Christ’s favor we are CATHOLIC Christians:”
St. Augustine, Letter to Vitalis, 217,5,16, 427 A.D.

“By the same word, by the same Sacrament you were born, but you will not come to the same inheritance of eternal life, unless you return to the CATHOLIC CHURCH.”
St. Augustine, Sermons, 3, 391 A.D.

“This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church, fighting as she does against all heresies. She can fight, but she cannot be beaten. All heresies are expelled from her, like the useless loppings pruned from a vine. She remains fixed in her root, in her vine, in her love. The gates of hell shall NOT conquer her.”
St. Augustine, Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, 6,14, 395 A.D.

Dear Brother, You’re hanging your yourself again by “guessing” on what the Early Church Fathers thought

Blessed Augustine would want you to become a Catholic and live a Sacramental Christian life

[HarleyD]

Dear Brother, You’re hanging your yourself again by “guessing” on what the Early Church Fathers thought Blessed Augustine would want you to become a Catholic and live a Sacramental Christian life

I don't have to guess. I'm well aware of what the early fathers wrote. The quotes you provided from Augustine are much early than his revelation in A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints.

"Therefore," says the Pelagian, "He foreknew who would be holy and immaculate by the choice of free will, and on that account elected them before the foundation of the world in that same foreknowledge of His in which He foreknew that they would be such. Therefore He elected them," says he, "before they existed, predestinating them to be children whom He foreknew to be holy and immaculate. Certainly He did not make them so; nor did He foresee that He would make them so, but that they would be so." Let us, then, look into the words of the apostle and see whether He chose us before the foundation of the world because we were going to be holy and immaculate, or in order that we might be so. "Blessed," says he, "be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us in all spiritual blessing in the heavens in Christ; even as He hath chosen us in Himself before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted." [Eph. 1.3.] Not, then, because we were to be so, but that we might be so.

I'd seriously doubt Augustine would have been Catholic today. I believe he would have felt more comfortable as an Orthodox Presbyterian.

I don't "hang" myself on the church fathers. To me they are uninspired writings from which we gather facts and data about how the church viewed things and how theology was constructed. To understand their writings completely, you have to have an understanding of what was happening in history at the time of their writings. These writings are tainted with events surrounding the fathers. I quoted Ireaneus simply to show that he at least held some view of God's sovereign will over man's life; there are others. The true theological position was always held within the Church but it wasn't until Augustine understood the issue and put it in his Treatise that it caused problems.

To the Catholic Church, the fathers writings are next to inspired writings. The Church feels the are capable of picking and choosing which of those writings are more inspirational than the others. You quoted Ireaneus as showing he believe in man's freedom of choice.

In some ways we have the same perspective on the fathers but simply coming from different angles. The only problem I see with the Catholic perspective is that they fail to recognize the historical context of the writings. Thus it has lead to corruption of the Catholic doctrine.

We could throw around quotes and theological comments from the fathers all day long but it won't mean anything. You yourself don't buy into Augustine's Predestination beliefs. So why is this one document wrong and the others right? (Especially when Agusutine states that his earlier works are in error?) When all is said and done, the only thing we have to support our views are the scriptures (GASP-Sola Scriptura)

I speak of the most blessed Cyprian—when he said "that we must boast in nothing, since nothing is our own." And in order to show this, he appealed to the apostle as a witness, where he said, "For what hast thou that thou hast not received? And if thou hast received it, why boastest thou as if thou hadst not received it?" [1 Cor. 4.7.] And it was chiefly by this testimony that I myself also was convinced when I was in a similar error, thinking that faith whereby we believe on God is not God's gift, but that it is in us from ourselves, and that by it we obtain the gifts of God, whereby we may live temperately and righteously and piously in this world.

[OLD REGGIE]

Blessed Augustine would want you to become a Catholic and live a Sacramental Christian life

And Augustine would want you to rely on Scripture. (I can cut & paste also).

In those things which are clearly laid down in Scripture, all those things are found which pertain to faith and morals. (De Doct. Chr. 2:9)

Whatever you hear from them [the Scriptures], let that be well received by you. Whatever is without them refuse, lest you wander in a cloud. (De Pastore, 11)

All those things which in times past our ancestors have mentioned to be done toward mankind and have delivered unto us: all those things also which we see and deliver to our posterity, so far as they pertain to the seeking and maintaining true religion, the Holy Scripture has not passed over in silence. (Ep. 42)

Whatever our Saviour would have us read of his actions and sayings he commanded his apostles and disciples, as his hands, to write. (De Consensu Evang. 1:ult.)

Let them [the Donatists] demonstrate their church if they can, not by the talk and rumor of the Africans; not by the councils of their own bishops; not by the books of their disputers; not by deceitful miracles, against which we are cautioned by the word of God, but in the prescript of the law, in the predictions of the prophets, in the verses of the Psalms, in the voice of the Shepherd himself, in the preaching and works of the evangelists; that is, in all canonical authorities of the sacred Scriptures. (De Unit. Eccl. 16)