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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

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To: kawaii; blue-duncan
This from the folks who throw out Corinthians as some antiquated cultural nonsense.

LOL. I never in my life knew someone who spent so much time clamoring about women's head coverings or the lack thereof.

A woman's hair is her head covering.

Next!

8,561 posted on 10/08/2007 4:59:22 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: D-fendr; kosta50; HarleyD; MarkBsnr
FK: "I don't see the difference between predestining one to hell and creating one already knowing that he will use his free will to choose against God."

Look at the difference in terms of what each says about the creator.

I really don't see much of a difference. In both cases the person has ZERO chance of getting into Heaven. In fact, if God's true word is that ALL have a chance, then it would be more cruel, it seems, to create someone who has no chance, but yet has free will in the Apostolic sense. :)

And ask yourself: Is a human being really human without free will?

He would be less of a human being if he experienced that he didn't have free will. I'll agree to that. But of course, our actual experience is that of having a full free will. Therefore, regardless of which, if either, of our respective theologies is right on this, I don't think it really has any effect on our humanity.

8,562 posted on 10/08/2007 5:50:21 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

“A woman’s hair is her head covering.”

That’s 1 Cor. 11:15, if anyone is listening!!!


8,563 posted on 10/08/2007 6:17:24 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: kawaii; Dr. Eckleburg; suzyjaruki
"Here we see some overly literal mistranslation of protestants" How is it overly literal?
8,564 posted on 10/08/2007 6:48:15 PM PDT by Athena1
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To: kawaii
This from the folks who throw out Corinthians Obviously, you have not followed the thread. We are not the ones who throw out Paul's writings. On the contrary, we have been accused of elevating Paul's writing. You really need to pay better attention.
8,565 posted on 10/08/2007 6:53:40 PM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: Alamo-Girl; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; MarkBsnr; D-fendr; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; ...
Likewise, there will always be some who insist that Euclidean geometry is representative of God’s Creation

And, no doubt, there are those who believe Einstein's theory of relativity and current cosmology are divine.

The Point at Infinity which is defined as the intersection of two parallel lines was first considered by Desargues (1591-1661) and Poncelet (1788-1867) was first to employ it.

It is mental exercise. Infinity is never reached. Therefore, parallel lines will never reach. We will spend an infinity getting to know God in heaven and we will never know Him. To say that two parallel lines meet at infinity is as good as saying they never meet, A-G. In other words, their angle of convergence is infinitely small. Only someone very naive would treat infinity as a real destination.

Einstein wasn’t even born until 1904

I am sure he knew of Desargues and Poncelet.

Since you have no source for it, I shall dismiss your claim at 8447 that Einstein had postulated there is “a common center to the universe towards all object will eventually fall.”

Then there was no reason to believe the universe was curved. By the way, light is bent by gravity not space or time.We have no clue whatsoever why gravity exists.

The fact that all points in the universe are diverging from each other (like dots on an expanding balloon), there is by implication a common center of gravity. Big Bang is postulated on the existence of the universal center of gravity.

But Big Bang fails to explain why, just as it fails to explain what overwhelmed the force that contained all the energy/matter in a dimensionless point, and resulted in the corresponding explosion.


8,566 posted on 10/08/2007 7:39:28 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; MarkBsnr; P-Marlowe; xzins; Kolokotronis; jo kus; D-fendr
The wickedness we are born with in our nature is removed when we receive our new nature. We are a new creation. However, a REMNANT of our old nature does remain, so we still sin from time to time

What? Who removes our wickedness? Is it not the Holy Spirit? Are you saying He is doing an incomplete job? I must admit, this is a new one.

St. Paul doesn't think there is a "remannt," FK:

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect [Heb12:23]


8,567 posted on 10/08/2007 7:58:01 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; suzyjaruki
To: Athena1 Thanks for your reply. I am reasonably aware of the Holy Spirit and how He works; it is the Reformed theology that I have trouble understanding. Now, under Reformed doctrine: 1. How does God bless you through prayer? God blesses believers through prayer in several ways. Prayer calms the believer and allows the holy spirit to direct our hearts to be thankful, to make our petitions, and to honor God. Communion with God through prayer blesses us as it reminds us who our creator is, which is not just a comfort to a believer, but a confirmation of belonging to Him. It blesses us because in our prayer we are being obedient. 2. This thread contains numerous posts from Reformed who claim that they ARE elect and they know it. If God doesn’t tell them, how do they know? God does tell us; through his word and by his spirit. 3. The unsaved are always going to be unsaved. What’s the point of giving them the Gospel? Because no one knows who the unsaved are. God uses His human agents to seek them out by the preaching of the word. 4. This thread contains numbeous posts from Reformed who claim that all of their sins past and future are already forgiven. If they are forgiven, then they are forgiven. Why would you pray for forgiveness, when, upon notification of being the elect, you are forgiven at that point in the past? I answered this in the last reply I think? We are saved from our sins, but not saved from sinning this side of heaven. So that in our sanctification we must still humble ourselves and repent of sin. God requires a humble and contrite heart. This happens when we acknowledge our sin. 5. I thought that salvation is a one-shot deal. What does it mean that the Holy Spirit continues to work in your sanctification? I am going to assume that you ask this question in good faith? Certainly biblical concepts of sanctification are not unknown to you? Are you familiar with Romans 8 and 9? God makes it very clear that the pilgrimage through this life is one of suffering and challenge? That we must be made more and more like Christ? But that we should not worry for we are His and what he starts he will complete? 6. What defines a believer? Can a non elect be a believer? How can someone non elect be a believer? They can be a potential believer. Hence the need to proclaim the gospel... If you could answer these through Reformed theology, I’d be grateful. We have had the teachings of Jesus, then the Apostles and the Church for 2000 years, and the Bible for 1700 years. It’s the Johnny-come-latelies with variably generated theologies that I have a little trouble understanding. I have read several posts to you that I thought very thoughtful and they were full of scripture. I am not certain if you are being serious here or are slipping in some kind of insult. Reformed theology is not new, nor is it 'come lately'. The RCC corrupted early church teachings and sadly continues to do so. Reformed theology came about not due to wanting something new, but in wanting something as pure as possible this side of heaven.
8,568 posted on 10/08/2007 7:59:09 PM PDT by Athena1
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To: kawaii

***Protestants put tehir faith iun 15th century west europeons; not in Christ.***

Prove it.


8,569 posted on 10/08/2007 8:58:39 PM PDT by irishtenor (How much good could a Hindu do, if a Hindu could do good?)
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To: kawaii

***Protestants have no faith in Christ they have faith in french and german lawyers.***

Sir, you are making assumptions on personal faith issues. I ask you to please stop. You have no right to tell me or any other Protestant that they have no faith just because we disagree with you. Again I ask you to stop. NOW.


8,570 posted on 10/08/2007 9:07:37 PM PDT by irishtenor (How much good could a Hindu do, if a Hindu could do good?)
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To: Athena1; Dr. Eckleburg; MarkBsnr
Amen to your post Athena.

The RCC corrupted early church teachings and sadly continues to do so. Reformed theology came about not due to wanting something new, but in wanting something as pure as possible this side of heaven.

If another 2000 years go by, who will recognize the Roman Catholic Church of today.

8,571 posted on 10/08/2007 9:09:29 PM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: kawaii
And still no Scripture in sight in any of your replies.
8,572 posted on 10/09/2007 12:45:53 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Athena1; MarkBsnr; suzyjaruki; kosta50; Terirem

“Reformed theology is not new, nor is it ‘come lately’.”

I suppose its all in what one considers “new”. Compared to the theology of the Church of the 7 Councils, it certainly is “new”. You know, the Episcopalian heretics claim that their homoerotic “theology” is valid because “the Holy Spirit is doing a new thing.” It seems that the Reformers would argue the same thing, that the Holy Spirit was in their time doing a “new thing”, either that or that He went to sleep for 1500 years after Pentecost. In the West, there have been “new” theologies popping up for centuries. Its a problem for some of us, Athena.

“The RCC corrupted early church teachings and sadly continues to do so.”

Athena, do you believe this is also true of the Orthodox Church?


8,573 posted on 10/09/2007 4:05:49 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: MarkBsnr; wmfights
We don’t change the Bible, we don’t abridge or edit it, and we don’t claim that St. Paul wrote our theology, under the tutelage of St. Calvin.

Oh, pleeazzzeeee. The Orthodox makes no bones about saying portions of scriptures are obsolete. Even Catholics would be hard press to say why they don't allow priests to marry in contradiction of scripture. As far as abridging the scripture, you won't find the ascension of Mary into heaven or her being perfect in scripture. I'd don't think I'd make that argument.

Normally, the Catholic/Orthodox argument is that you were given the keys and you can make any changes you feel necessary. I'd stick with that one if I were you, as shaky as that is.

BTW-It's a pleasure to know Catholics finally recognize Calvin as a Saint. We're making progress.

8,574 posted on 10/09/2007 4:25:05 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: irishtenor; kawaii
Irishtenor to kawaii: Sir, you are making assumptions on personal faith issues

As long as it is not personal, racist, etc., he is etitled to believe and say that Protestats as a group "have no faith in Christ they have faith in french and german lawyers" because that's his opinion, just as the Reformed are allowed to believe and say that the Catholic/Orthodox Church is "idolatrous."

8,575 posted on 10/09/2007 4:57:17 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: HarleyD

I have a personal question for you? Have you ever heard of or know about past participles?


8,576 posted on 10/09/2007 4:58:37 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: HarleyD
The Orthodox makes no bones about saying portions of scriptures are obsolete

Huh? Which ones?

8,577 posted on 10/09/2007 5:01:46 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Athena1
Reformed theology came about not due to wanting something new, but in wanting something as pure as possible this side of heaven

LOL!!! You are joking, right?

8,578 posted on 10/09/2007 5:05:46 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper

I’d really like to caution folks about using Wiki as a definitive source for anything.

Christ is the Path, the Way, the Via. Not the chauffeur. The continuing claims that Catholics give credit to man weren’t right the first time a heretic said ‘em and they’ll never be right. We’re not on the hook, theologically speaking. We’re just following Christ’s instructions, not those of somebody who came along centuries later with a new twist on theology and hung up a shingle.

If perseverance is only for the elect, does that mean that the non elect do not persevere? Not even in their sin? But even the elect sin. Does that mean that there is a qualitative difference in the sin of the elect versus the non elect?

I got some strong replies to my posting of the hyper Calvinist article by folks that really seemed to adhere to its definition. :)


8,579 posted on 10/09/2007 5:16:12 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; FormerLib; wmfights
Per Scripture being our Biblically-mandated yardstick...

That is itself not biblical. Sola scriptura does not exist in the Bible.

"Every word of God is pure...Proverbs 30:5"

God is pure and His words are pure. Every word in the Bible is not the word of God.

The Bible is also not God.

Inspiration is not God.

The Gospels even are not direct quotes but narratives of what Jesus would have, or was known to have, or is believed to have said. Ancient writers quoted others based on their familiarity with the person. Their quotes are not direct quotes.

The Bible is what God revealed to lesser or greater degree, expressed in human terms, human emotions and human language.

The only way to know whether what we read is of any validity is to do textual criticism and this is possible only to a limited extent.

Some groups who claim Christ as their Saviour have an idolatrous relationship with the Bible.

8,580 posted on 10/09/2007 5:25:37 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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