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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years?

Wednesday, 11 July 2007

Yesterday's Reuters headline: "The Vatican on Tuesday said Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ." The actual proclamation, posted on the official Vatican Web site, says that Protestant Churches are really "ecclesial communities" rather than Churches, because they lack apostolic succession, and therefore they "have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery." Furthermore, not even the Eastern Orthodox Churches are real Churches, even though they were explicitly referred to as such in the Vatican document Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism). The new document explains that they were only called Churches because "the Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term." This new clarification, issued officially by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but in fact strongly supported by Pope Benedict XVI, manages to insult both Protestants and the Orthodox, and it may set ecumenism back a hundred years.

The new document, officially entitled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," claims that the positions it takes do not reverse the intent of various Vatican II documents, especially Unitatis Redintegratio, but merely clarify them. In support of this contention, it cites other documents, all issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Mysterium Ecclesiae (1973), Communionis notio (1992), and Dominus Iesus (2000). The last two of these documents were issued while the current pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, was prefect of the Congregation. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was born in 1542 with the name Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition, and for centuries it has operated as an extremely conservative force with the Roman Catholic Church, opposing innovation and modernizing tendencies, suppressing dissent, and sometimes, in its first few centuries, persecuting those who believed differently. More recently, the congregation has engaged in the suppression of some of Catholicism's most innovative and committed thinkers, such as Yves Congar, Hans Küng, Charles Curran, Matthew Fox, and Jon Sobrino and other liberation theologians. In light of the history of the Congregation of the Faith, such conservative statements as those released this week are hardly surprising, though they are quite unwelcome.

It is natural for members of various Christian Churches to believe that the institutions to which they belong are the best representatives of Christ's body on earth--otherwise, why wouldn't they join a different Church? It is disingenuous, however, for the leader of a Church that has committed itself "irrevocably" (to use Pope John Paul II's word in Ut Unum Sint [That They May Be One] 3, emphasis original) to ecumenism to claim to be interested in unity while at the same time declaring that all other Christians belong to Churches that are in some way deficient. How different was the attitude of Benedict's predecessors, who wrote, "In subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church--for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3). In Benedict's view, at various times in history groups of Christians wandered from the original, pure Roman Catholic Church, and any notion of Christian unity today is predicated on the idea of those groups abandoning their errors and returning to the Roman Catholic fold. The pope's problem seems to be that he is a theologian rather than a historian. Otherwise he could not possibly make such outrageous statements and think that they were compatible with the spirit of ecumenism that his immediate predecessors promoted.

One of the pope's most strident arguments against the validity of other Churches is that they can't trace their bishops' lineages back to the original apostles, as the bishops in the Roman Catholic Church can. There are three problems with this idea.

First, many Protestants deny the importance of apostolic succession as a guarantor of legitimacy. They would argue that faithfulness to the Bible and/or the teachings of Christ is a better measure of authentic Christian faith than the ability to trace one's spiritual ancestry through an ecclesiastical bureaucracy. A peripheral knowledge of the lives of some of the medieval and early modern popes (e.g., Stephen VI, Sergius III, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI) is enough to call the insistence on apostolic succession into serious question. Moreover, the Avignon Papacy and the divided lines of papal claimants in subsequent decades calls into serious question the legitimacy of the whole approach. Perhaps the strongest argument against the necessity of apostolic succession comes from the Apostle Paul, who was an acknowledged apostle despite not having been ordained by one of Jesus' original twelve disciples. In fact, Paul makes much of the fact that his authority came directly from Jesus Christ rather than from one of the apostles (Gal 1:11-12). Apostolic succession was a useful tool for combating incipient heresy and establishing the antiquity of the churches in particular locales, but merely stating that apostolic succession is a necessary prerequisite for being a true church does not make it so.

The second problem with the new document's insistence upon apostolic succession is the fact that at least three other Christian communions have apostolic succession claims that are as valid as that of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches, which split from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054, can trace their lineages back to the same apostles that the Roman Catholic Church can, a fact acknowledged by Unitatis Redintegratio 14. The Oriental Orthodox Churches, such as the Coptic and Ethiopic Orthodox Churches, split from the Roman Catholic Church several centuries earlier, but they too can trace their episcopal lineages back to the same apostles claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as its founders. Finally, the Anglican Church, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII, can likewise trace the lineage of every bishop back through the first archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. In addition to these three collections of Christian Churches, the Old Catholics and some Methodists also see value in the idea of apostolic succession, and they can trace their episcopal lineages just as far back as Catholic bishops can.

The third problem with the idea of apostolic succession is that the earliest bishops in certain places are simply unknown, and the lists produced in the third and fourth centuries that purported to identify every bishop back to the founding of the church in a particular area were often historically unreliable. Who was the founding bishop of Byzantium? Who brought the gospel to Alexandria? To Edessa? To Antioch? There are lists that give names (e.g., http://www.friesian.com/popes.htm), such as the Apostles Mark (Alexandria), Andrew (Byzantium), and Thaddeus (Armenia), but the association of the apostles with the founding of these churches is legendary, not historical. The most obvious breakdown of historicity in the realm of apostolic succession involves none other than the see occupied by the pope, the bishop of Rome. It is certain that Peter did make his way to Rome before the time of Nero, where he perished, apparently in the Neronian persecution following the Great Fire of Rome, but it is equally certain that the church in Rome predates Peter, as it also predates Paul's arrival there (Paul also apparently died during the Neronian persecution). The Roman Catholic Church may legitimately claim a close association with both Peter and Paul, but it may not legitimately claim that either was the founder of the church there. The fact of the matter is that the gospel reached Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Edessa, and other early centers of Christianity in the hands of unknown, faithful Christians, not apostles, and the legitimacy of the churches established there did not suffer in the least because of it.

All the talk in the new document about apostolic succession is merely a smokescreen, however, for the main point that the Congregation of the Faith and the pope wanted to drive home: recognition of the absolute primacy of the pope. After playing with the words "subsists in" (Lumen Gentium [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church] 8) and "church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 14) in an effort to make them mean something other than what they originally meant, the document gets down to the nitty-gritty. "Since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches." From an ecumenical standpoint, this position is a non-starter. Communion with Rome and acknowledging the authority of the pope as bishop of Rome is a far different matter from recognizing the pope as the "visible head" of the entire church, without peer. The pope is an intelligent man, and he knows that discussions with other Churches will make no progress on the basis of this prerequisite, so the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the pope, despite his protestations, has no interest in pursuing ecumenism. Trying to persuade other Christians to become Roman Catholics, which is evidently the pope's approach to other Churches, is not ecumenism, it's proselytism.

Fortunately, this document does not represent the viewpoint of all Catholics, either laypeople or scholars. Many ordinary Catholics would scoff at the idea that other denominations were not legitimate Churches, which just happen to have different ideas about certain topics and different ways of expressing a common Christianity. Similarly, many Catholic scholars are doing impressive work in areas such as theology, history, biblical study, and ethics, work that interacts with ideas produced by non-Catholic scholars. In the classroom and in publications, Catholics and non-Catholics learn from each other, challenge one another, and, perhaps most importantly, respect one another.

How does one define the Church? Christians have many different understandings of the term, and Catholics are divided among themselves, as are non-Catholics. The ecumenical movement is engaged in addressing this issue in thoughtful, meaningful, and respectful ways. Will the narrow-minded view expressed in "Responses" be the death-knell of the ecumenical movement? Hardly. Unity among Christians is too important an idea to be set aside. Will the document set back ecumenical efforts? Perhaps, but Christians committed to Christian unity--Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike--will get beyond it. The ecumenical movement is alive and well, and no intemperate pronouncement from the Congregation of the Faith, or the current pope, can restrain it for long. Even if ecumenism, at least as it involves the Roman Catholic Church's connection with other Churches, is temporarily set back a hundred years, that distance can be closed either by changes of heart or changes of leadership.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: apostolic; catholic; fascinatedwcatholics; givemerome; obsessionwithrome; papistsrule; pope; protestant; solascriptura
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To: MarkBsnr
If I kill somebody in the service of God

I find this an odd statement.

Thou shall not kill

7,241 posted on 09/26/2007 10:03:05 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

If the sainted Calvin was God’s instrument in reforming the Church, then why has it been constantly reformed ever since?

“It is the will of our Master that his gospel be preached. Let us obey his command, and follow whithersoever he calls.” Not Saint Paul?

“Our only duty is to wish for what is best, and beseech it of the Lord in prayer” which makes no sense since his theology is based upon predestination. Why would one beg the Lord to change His mind if one believes that everything is fixed throughout eternity?


7,242 posted on 09/26/2007 10:03:24 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: 1000 silverlings

Follow it through.

If I (as a, for instance, Roman centurion in the arena) did it. Not I, a Christian.


7,243 posted on 09/26/2007 10:04:46 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Doesn’t matter. Only God can take a life


7,244 posted on 09/26/2007 10:05:40 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: 1000 silverlings

Really? Do you have Scriptural evidence for this?


7,245 posted on 09/26/2007 10:13:54 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; wmfights; P-Marlowe; suzyjaruki; xzins
We allowed the Reformation to occur. Our fault.

It's always nice to stop and chuckle.

They must think they are all powerful and GOD obeys them.

7,246 posted on 09/26/2007 10:16:33 AM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: HarleyD

Who’s we?

You’re not one of these guys are you? http://members.tripod.com/~gnostica/


7,247 posted on 09/26/2007 10:17:28 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: wmfights

There are some that believe that the Reformation was at the behest of God. Then, there are the Christians.


7,248 posted on 09/26/2007 10:19:18 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Of course. Killing in God's service is troubling to me. There are instances of God's servants killing, but in the case of Samuel for instance, (1 Samuel 15:33)there is rightful cause. Just anyone taking upon themselves "to kill in God's service" is unbiblical.
7,249 posted on 09/26/2007 10:22:08 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: MarkBsnr; 1000 silverlings; HarleyD; Forest Keeper
If the sainted Calvin was God’s instrument in reforming the Church, then why has it been constantly reformed ever since?

The church is constantly being reformed, Mark. Not changed necessarily, but refined and ever-striving toward obedience to His word.

"Ecclesia reforma; semper reformanda."

Now and always until the end.

Why would one beg the Lord to change His mind

No one is "begging God to change His mind." That sentence makes no sense to a Bible-believing Christian.

Calvin's remark that "Our only duty is to wish for what is best, and beseech it of the Lord in prayer" acknowledges God's sovereignty in all things and man's need for prayer and his duty to conform to God's will, which, by the grace given to him by the Holy Spirit, he will accomplish.

Rome has so much wrong that it's not difficult to understand much of its practices are not "what is best."

7,250 posted on 09/26/2007 10:23:10 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wmfights
They must think they are all powerful and GOD obeys them.

lol. That is EXACTLY what they think.

7,251 posted on 09/26/2007 10:25:09 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: 1000 silverlings

I think you missed my original point completely.

You said that God killed martyrs. I was trying to clarify if you believed that the Roman gladiator who actually wielded the short sword did the killing or if everything was totally in God’s hands; that He ordained it, made it happen, and in fact swung that sword Himself.

I am not advocating myself as an assassin either for God or for the temporal world. No.


7,252 posted on 09/26/2007 10:26:02 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD

I said that God makes martyrs. I didn’t say He killed them. Misguided people taking upon themselves to “do God’s work” kill them


7,253 posted on 09/26/2007 10:29:38 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.)
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To: MarkBsnr; 1000 silverlings; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper
Notice that it says that all sins other than that WILL be forgiven them. How does your theology deal with these verses?

So you are saying all the sins of mankind (except blaspheming the Holy Spirit) are forgiven? Is that what the RCC teaches now -- Christ forgives everyone's sins? Christ's makes atonement for everyone's sins? Then why in the world would anyone go to hell if Christ paid for their sins in full?

Let's see what Christ says...

" I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." -- John 17:9-10

Again, your argument is with God's word.

7,254 posted on 09/26/2007 10:33:37 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; Forest Keeper; wmfights
The Foreknowledge article had zero Gospel references.

The Foreknowledge article has dozens of Scriptural references. God did not write just the four books of the Gospels. He wrote 66 books of the Bible and we are to learn from all of them.

IIRC, the RCC uses more than the four Gospels to preach and teach. Has that changed?

God has tested them (Mother Teresa and JPII) differently.

Then God is not "impartial," is He?

7,255 posted on 09/26/2007 10:40:00 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; MHGinTN; kosta50
Why does God ordain that we pray?

It glorifies Him and benefits us. In all things God works for the good of those who love Him. That includes ordaining that we pray.

How is God glorified by the Reformed praying to Him? If He is responsible for everything that we do or say, does that mean that you are the mirror for God to look into?

I don't even understand the mirror comment, but God is glorified because of:

John 14:13-14 : 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

-----------------------

Are you further saying that prayer is for your benefit because you understand better your dependence on Him, and because of that your love for Him grows? Is this orthodox Calvinism?

That is what I'm saying. Here is what Calvin says:

Section 3 But some one will say, Does he not know without a monitor both what our difficulties are, and what is meet for our interest, so that it seems in some measure superfluous to solicit him by our prayers, as if he were winking, or even sleeping, until aroused by the sound of our voice? Those who argue thus attend not to the end for which the Lord taught us to pray. It was not so much for his sake as for ours. He wills indeed, as is just, that due honour be paid him by acknowledging that all which men desire or feel to be useful, and pray to obtain, is derived from him.

But even the benefit of the homage which we thus pay him redounds to ourselves. Hence the holy patriarchs, the more confidently they proclaimed the mercies of God to themselves and others felt the stronger incitement to prayer. It will be sufficient to refer to the example of Elijah, who being assured of the purpose of God had good ground for the promise of rain which he gives to Ahab, and yet prays anxiously upon his knees, and sends his servant seven times to inquire (1 Kings 18:42); not that he discredits the oracle, but because he knows it to be his duty to lay his desires before God, lest his faith should become drowsy or torpid. Wherefore, although it is true that while we are listless or insensible to our wretchedness, he wakes and watches for use and sometimes even assists us unasked; it is very much for our interest to be constantly supplicating him; first, that our heart may always be inflamed with a serious and ardent desire of seeking, loving and serving him, while we accustom ourselves to have recourse to him as a sacred anchor in every necessity; secondly, that no desires, no longing whatever, of which we are ashamed to make him the witness, may enter our minds, while we learn to place all our wishes in his sight, and thus pour out our heart before him; and, lastly, that we may be prepared to receive all his benefits with true gratitude and thanksgiving, while our prayers remind us that they proceed from his hand.

Moreover, having obtained what we asked, being persuaded that he has answered our prayers, we are led to long more earnestly for his favour, and at the same time have greater pleasure in welcoming the blessings which we perceive to have been obtained by our prayers. Lastly, use and experience confirm the thought of his providence in our minds in a manner adapted to our weakness, when we understand that he not only promises that he will never fail us, and spontaneously gives us access to approach him in every time of need, but has his hand always stretched out to assist his people, not amusing them with words, but proving himself to be a present aid. For these reasons, though our most merciful Father never slumbers nor sleeps, he very often seems to do so, that thus he may exercise us, when we might otherwise be listless and slothful, in asking, entreating, and earnestly beseeching him to our great good.

It is very absurd, therefore, to dissuade men from prayer, by pretending that Divine Providence, which is always watching over the government of the universes is in vain importuned by our supplications, when, on the contrary, the Lord himself declares, that he is "nigh unto all that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth (Ps 145:18). No better is the frivolous allegation of others, that it is superfluous to pray for things which the Lord is ready of his own accord to bestow; since it is his pleasure that those very things which flow from his spontaneous liberality should be acknowledged as conceded to our prayers. This is testified by that memorable sentence in the psalms to which many others corresponds: "The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry" (Ps 34:15). This passage, while extolling the care which Divine Providence spontaneously exercises over the safety of believers, omits not the exercise of faith by which the mind is aroused from sloth. The eyes of God are awake to assist the blind in their necessity, but he is likewise pleased to listen to our groans, that he may give us the better proof of his love.

And thus both things are true, "He that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep" (Ps 121:4); and yet whenever he sees us dumb and torpid, he withdraws as if he had forgotten us. (from Calvin: Of Prayer) [formatting and all emphasis by FK]

Amen. Calvin says that it is God's pleasure that we experience some things He was going to do anyway as direct responses to our asking. Since He ordains it all anyway we can look at it either way. Sorry for the length, but I think Calvin just nailed it here and is directly on point to our discussion.

Further; are you saying that nobody can believe in God if Jesus didn’t die?

If Jesus didn't die, then "God" would not be the God that we know. He would be some other God. The Bible would be very different and all the rules would be very different.

7,256 posted on 09/26/2007 10:48:33 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Honestly, that’s far too bloody. We prefer burning at the stake.


7,257 posted on 09/26/2007 10:51:41 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: MarkBsnr; wmfights; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; 1000 silverlings
Matt 12:31 - "Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."

You should read your Scripture more carefully.

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." -- Matthew 12:30-31

"Forgiven unto men." Not "forgiven all men everywhere."

This verse is a general caution that to deny the Holy Spirit is an unpardonable sin because it is the Holy Spirit who directly interacts with men by the will of God. No one who has the Holy Spirit within them will deny Him, but those who do not have the Holy Spirit within them will deny Him all day long, and to their everlasting shame.

And further, verse 30 illustrates Christ explaining some men's sins will not be forgiven, and those men who are not with Him will be scattered abroad -- away from Him.

If all men's sins have been forgiven, why would Christ be scattering them away from Him?

Illogical as well as unScriptural. Christ paid for the sins of His sheep. His sacrifice was sufficient for all the world, but efficient for only those whom God has given Him.

7,258 posted on 09/26/2007 10:52:17 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
That is EXACTLY what they think.

Not much of a GOD if he lets his creation rule him.

7,259 posted on 09/26/2007 10:53:48 AM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: Forest Keeper
Calvin says that it is God's pleasure that we experience some things He was going to do anyway as direct responses to our asking. Since He ordains it all anyway we can look at it either way.

Amen! Romans 8:28.

7,260 posted on 09/26/2007 10:56:20 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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