Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
I find this an odd statement.
Thou shall not kill
If the sainted Calvin was God’s instrument in reforming the Church, then why has it been constantly reformed ever since?
“It is the will of our Master that his gospel be preached. Let us obey his command, and follow whithersoever he calls.” Not Saint Paul?
“Our only duty is to wish for what is best, and beseech it of the Lord in prayer” which makes no sense since his theology is based upon predestination. Why would one beg the Lord to change His mind if one believes that everything is fixed throughout eternity?
Follow it through.
If I (as a, for instance, Roman centurion in the arena) did it. Not I, a Christian.
Doesn’t matter. Only God can take a life
Really? Do you have Scriptural evidence for this?
It's always nice to stop and chuckle.
They must think they are all powerful and GOD obeys them.
There are some that believe that the Reformation was at the behest of God. Then, there are the Christians.
The church is constantly being reformed, Mark. Not changed necessarily, but refined and ever-striving toward obedience to His word.
"Ecclesia reforma; semper reformanda."
Now and always until the end.
Why would one beg the Lord to change His mind
No one is "begging God to change His mind." That sentence makes no sense to a Bible-believing Christian.
Calvin's remark that "Our only duty is to wish for what is best, and beseech it of the Lord in prayer" acknowledges God's sovereignty in all things and man's need for prayer and his duty to conform to God's will, which, by the grace given to him by the Holy Spirit, he will accomplish.
Rome has so much wrong that it's not difficult to understand much of its practices are not "what is best."
lol. That is EXACTLY what they think.
I think you missed my original point completely.
You said that God killed martyrs. I was trying to clarify if you believed that the Roman gladiator who actually wielded the short sword did the killing or if everything was totally in God’s hands; that He ordained it, made it happen, and in fact swung that sword Himself.
I am not advocating myself as an assassin either for God or for the temporal world. No.
I said that God makes martyrs. I didn’t say He killed them. Misguided people taking upon themselves to “do God’s work” kill them
So you are saying all the sins of mankind (except blaspheming the Holy Spirit) are forgiven? Is that what the RCC teaches now -- Christ forgives everyone's sins? Christ's makes atonement for everyone's sins? Then why in the world would anyone go to hell if Christ paid for their sins in full?
Let's see what Christ says...
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." -- John 17:9-10" I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Again, your argument is with God's word.
The Foreknowledge article has dozens of Scriptural references. God did not write just the four books of the Gospels. He wrote 66 books of the Bible and we are to learn from all of them.
IIRC, the RCC uses more than the four Gospels to preach and teach. Has that changed?
God has tested them (Mother Teresa and JPII) differently.
Then God is not "impartial," is He?
It glorifies Him and benefits us. In all things God works for the good of those who love Him. That includes ordaining that we pray.
How is God glorified by the Reformed praying to Him? If He is responsible for everything that we do or say, does that mean that you are the mirror for God to look into?
I don't even understand the mirror comment, but God is glorified because of:
John 14:13-14 : 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
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Are you further saying that prayer is for your benefit because you understand better your dependence on Him, and because of that your love for Him grows? Is this orthodox Calvinism?
That is what I'm saying. Here is what Calvin says:
Section 3 But some one will say, Does he not know without a monitor both what our difficulties are, and what is meet for our interest, so that it seems in some measure superfluous to solicit him by our prayers, as if he were winking, or even sleeping, until aroused by the sound of our voice? Those who argue thus attend not to the end for which the Lord taught us to pray. It was not so much for his sake as for ours. He wills indeed, as is just, that due honour be paid him by acknowledging that all which men desire or feel to be useful, and pray to obtain, is derived from him.
But even the benefit of the homage which we thus pay him redounds to ourselves. Hence the holy patriarchs, the more confidently they proclaimed the mercies of God to themselves and others felt the stronger incitement to prayer. It will be sufficient to refer to the example of Elijah, who being assured of the purpose of God had good ground for the promise of rain which he gives to Ahab, and yet prays anxiously upon his knees, and sends his servant seven times to inquire (1 Kings 18:42); not that he discredits the oracle, but because he knows it to be his duty to lay his desires before God, lest his faith should become drowsy or torpid. Wherefore, although it is true that while we are listless or insensible to our wretchedness, he wakes and watches for use and sometimes even assists us unasked; it is very much for our interest to be constantly supplicating him; first, that our heart may always be inflamed with a serious and ardent desire of seeking, loving and serving him, while we accustom ourselves to have recourse to him as a sacred anchor in every necessity; secondly, that no desires, no longing whatever, of which we are ashamed to make him the witness, may enter our minds, while we learn to place all our wishes in his sight, and thus pour out our heart before him; and, lastly, that we may be prepared to receive all his benefits with true gratitude and thanksgiving, while our prayers remind us that they proceed from his hand.
Moreover, having obtained what we asked, being persuaded that he has answered our prayers, we are led to long more earnestly for his favour, and at the same time have greater pleasure in welcoming the blessings which we perceive to have been obtained by our prayers. Lastly, use and experience confirm the thought of his providence in our minds in a manner adapted to our weakness, when we understand that he not only promises that he will never fail us, and spontaneously gives us access to approach him in every time of need, but has his hand always stretched out to assist his people, not amusing them with words, but proving himself to be a present aid. For these reasons, though our most merciful Father never slumbers nor sleeps, he very often seems to do so, that thus he may exercise us, when we might otherwise be listless and slothful, in asking, entreating, and earnestly beseeching him to our great good.
It is very absurd, therefore, to dissuade men from prayer, by pretending that Divine Providence, which is always watching over the government of the universes is in vain importuned by our supplications, when, on the contrary, the Lord himself declares, that he is "nigh unto all that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth (Ps 145:18). No better is the frivolous allegation of others, that it is superfluous to pray for things which the Lord is ready of his own accord to bestow; since it is his pleasure that those very things which flow from his spontaneous liberality should be acknowledged as conceded to our prayers. This is testified by that memorable sentence in the psalms to which many others corresponds: "The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry" (Ps 34:15). This passage, while extolling the care which Divine Providence spontaneously exercises over the safety of believers, omits not the exercise of faith by which the mind is aroused from sloth. The eyes of God are awake to assist the blind in their necessity, but he is likewise pleased to listen to our groans, that he may give us the better proof of his love.
And thus both things are true, "He that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep" (Ps 121:4); and yet whenever he sees us dumb and torpid, he withdraws as if he had forgotten us. (from Calvin: Of Prayer) [formatting and all emphasis by FK]
Amen. Calvin says that it is God's pleasure that we experience some things He was going to do anyway as direct responses to our asking. Since He ordains it all anyway we can look at it either way. Sorry for the length, but I think Calvin just nailed it here and is directly on point to our discussion.
Further; are you saying that nobody can believe in God if Jesus didn’t die?
If Jesus didn't die, then "God" would not be the God that we know. He would be some other God. The Bible would be very different and all the rules would be very different.
Honestly, that’s far too bloody. We prefer burning at the stake.
You should read your Scripture more carefully.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." -- Matthew 12:30-31"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
"Forgiven unto men." Not "forgiven all men everywhere."
This verse is a general caution that to deny the Holy Spirit is an unpardonable sin because it is the Holy Spirit who directly interacts with men by the will of God. No one who has the Holy Spirit within them will deny Him, but those who do not have the Holy Spirit within them will deny Him all day long, and to their everlasting shame.
And further, verse 30 illustrates Christ explaining some men's sins will not be forgiven, and those men who are not with Him will be scattered abroad -- away from Him.
If all men's sins have been forgiven, why would Christ be scattering them away from Him?
Illogical as well as unScriptural. Christ paid for the sins of His sheep. His sacrifice was sufficient for all the world, but efficient for only those whom God has given Him.
Not much of a GOD if he lets his creation rule him.
Amen! Romans 8:28.
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