Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The fact that you seem to be having trouble answering a simple question speaks for itself.

Did God will the cross and Christ's resurrection?

I think most of my RC friends could answer that one pretty quickly (with a grateful nod in the affirmative.)

Maybe you've been spending too much time around the vagaries within the EO. 8~)

[HarleyD]

Man hates God and is incapable of anything else until the Holy Spirit changes his heart. Is that the essence? Totally depraved. What a view of humanity.... I was hoping beyond hope that I wasn’t misreading your post.

I wish I could take credit for it.

CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.

CANON 22. Concerning those things that belong to man. No man has anything of his own but untruth and sin. But if a man has any truth or righteousness, it from that fountain for which we must thirst in this desert, so that we may be refreshed from it as by drops of water and not faint on the way.

The Council of Orange

Sorry commentary on mankind but there you have it.

Rom 1:22-30 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts,... Who changed the truth of God into a lie,...God gave them over to a reprobate mind, ... Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,...Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Men are haters of God and take pleasure in those that hate God as well.

[Alamo-Girl]

To the contrary, D-fendr, Christ has clearly testified that He died:

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. – Revelation 1:18

Moreover He has testified that it was the Father’s will that He should die:

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. – Luke 22:42

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. – John 12:27

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. – Phl 2:8

It pleased the Father to do this:

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. – Isaiah 53:4

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. – Isaiah 53:10-12

It was the only way:

For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. – Hebrews 9:16-17

You and I are dead to this world and yet we are alive with Christ in God (Col 3:3) because of what He has done for us:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. – John 17:1-5

Emphasis mine (Christ spoke this prayer while in the flesh:)

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. – John 17:11

Because of Who He is and what He did, He tore the veil between God and man, from top to bottom, God Himself purchasing us, His adopted family.

And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. - Mark 15:38

Maranatha, Jesus!

God willed that God would die to pay for the sins that God willed.

Scripture reads from Genesis to Revelation. God’s Name is I AM and Alpha and Omega.

The purpose for this heaven and earth is the next heaven and earth. Let us be patient.

From the beginning, the Father has been gathering a family with which He will live forever more. Every thing and every event “in” Creation – whether spiritual or physical – serves that end.

Light as well as darkness, Good as well as evil, Courage as well as fear, Health as well as sickness, Paradise/Eden as well as the Lake of Fire – all of it – reveals God to us through contrast - and prepares us to become members of His family.

That is the simple beauty of the passage I keep quoting from Colossians 1 – what “all that there is” is all “about.” Again, in context:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Col 1:15-20

Perhaps this "long view" has been lost somewhere along the way?

Praise God!!!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen.

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." -- Jeremiah 10:23

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"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." -- Mark 10:26-27

[MarkBsnr]

Not all men.

Instead of curbing people’s evil interests, God abandoned them to self-indulgence, thereby removing the facade of apparent conformity to the divine will. Yet, with the gift of grace, men can reach out and take God’s freely given gift and thereby start the journey towards everlasting life.

And it is some men that do the hating, not God. If their self indulgence takes precedence over the acceptance of God’s grace, then they are condemned not by their own standards, but how their standards meet God’s conditions. There we go; the conditional elect of all men. We are all elected to heaven but we can derail the process through our own efforts.

[HarleyD]

Is God's perseverance judged or man's?

If I understand your question correctly, Christians are not judged. We have already been judged by Christ. God leads us home. Perseverance is the process of this leading home by God.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen, A-G! Thank you for all that supporting Scripture. I wish we had a file system on FR; that post is a keeper.

The purpose for this heaven and earth is the next heaven and earth. Let us be patient.

From the beginning, the Father has been gathering a family with which He will live forever more. Every thing and every event "in" Creation – whether spiritual or physical – serves that end.

Light as well as darkness, Good as well as evil, Courage as well as fear, Health as well as sickness, Paradise/Eden as well as the Lake of Fire – all of it – reveals God to us through contrast - and prepares us to become members of His family.

Amen!!!

Jesus Christ, "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world!" (Rev. 13:8)

[MarkBsnr]

Let us also peruse the Council for further wisdom: Canon 13. Concerning the restoration of free will. The freedom of will that was destroyed in the first man can be restored only by the grace of baptism, for what is lost can be returned only by the one who was able to give it. Hence the Truth itself declares: "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:36). Conclusion. And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God's sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake" (Phil. 1:29). And again, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself, "I have obtained mercy to be faithful" (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, "because I was faithful," but "to be faithful." And again, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (Jas. 1:17). And again, "No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" (John 3:27). There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient. According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. -------------------- Thank you for reminding me of this Council. It is indeed a fountain of wisdom. Shall I sign you up for swimming lessons?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements, dear sister in Christ!

To God be the glory!

[MarkBsnr]

Ack!!!! The formatting, the formatting...

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Let us also peruse the Council for further wisdom:

Canon 13. Concerning the restoration of free will.
The freedom of will that was destroyed in the first man can be restored only by the grace of baptism, for what is lost can be returned only by the one who was able to give it. Hence the Truth itself declares: “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed” (John 8:36).

Conclusion.
And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God’s sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake” (Phil. 1:29). And again, “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself, “I have obtained mercy to be faithful” (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, “because I was faithful,” but “to be faithful.” And again, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, “Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights” (Jas. 1:17). And again, “No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven” (John 3:27).

There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient. According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.

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Thank you for reminding me of this Council. It is indeed a fountain of wisdom. Shall I sign you up for swimming lessons?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

God leads us home. Perseverance is the process of this leading home by God.

Amen! Perseverance is part of our sanctification; the faithful and true promise of the Holy Spirit. We really don't experience God nor Jesus Christ except by and through the Holy Spirit.

And the Holy Spirit will not fail. Christ has paid the penalty for the sins of His sheep. We have been forgiven. That knowledge motivates us to obey God and follow Christ's teachings, confident that the Holy Spirit resides and works in those who believe in Christ as their Savior, according to the will and purpose of God from before the foundation of the world.

[HarleyD]

Not all men.

And THIS is the problem. You think the description in Romans 1 only applies to some. There are others who are more nobler, more humbler, more caring, more something than others. The fact of the matter is that we are just as spiritually corrupt as the next person unless God reveals Himself to us.
Eph 2:2-6 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God,...hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

We were of the same nature as everyone else. We weren't any different.

There we go; the conditional elect of all men. We are all elected to heaven but we can derail the process through our own efforts.

Nonsense. God quickened us and raised us up. He will never leave or forsaken us. He will see us home. Those who the Lord loves He chastises to sanctify us and bring us home.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[HarleyD]

And the Holy Spirit will not fail. Christ has paid the penalty for the sins of His sheep. We have been forgiven.

Amen!!! Forgiven but never forsaken.

[wmfights]

Amen, A-G! Thank you for all that supporting Scripture. I wish we had a file system on FR; that post is a keeper.

FWIW, these threads have been such a great tool to help witness to friends and discuss Scripture with family.

[suzyjaruki]

I wish we had a file system on FR; that post is a keeper.

So true.

Praise God for faithful servants through whom He is pleased to "speak." Thanks to both of you for many truth-filled posts. You are both gifted and many of us are blessed by your gifts.

[D-fendr]

What happened to the long view that God is eternal?

[MarkBsnr]

Yeah, yeah.

St. Paul trumps Jesus once more; the gulf between the followers of Paul and the followers of Jesus widens just a little. Doesn’t it bother you that Paul addresses specific churches with specific problems and you guys try to apply them to the complete world, not just the Christian world, but the complete world?

I know that it’s really tempting to believe that one gets a free pass to the afterlife with even being judged, but come on. It’s not in the Gospels; it is shot down in the Gospels.

[HarleyD]

Let us also peruse the Council for further wisdom: Canon 13. Concerning the restoration of free will.

I'm not sure what you are quoting from. There are things in the Council of Orange I would disagree with; but then that is a Protestant's perogative. But from a Catholic perspective these things are binding codes of faith. So when the Council of Orange states:

CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).

CANON 4. If anyone maintains God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

Catholics have a problem. Canon 3 says that we can pray to God; it is by God's grace that we pray to Him for forgiveness and directly use a quote to indicate that He sought us. Canon 4 is even more stronger that says our will is prepared by the Lord. Well if our will is prepared and it is God that causes us to pray to Him, what more is left to be done. Us Calvinists call this irresistable grace.

[HarleyD]

St. Paul trumps Jesus once more...It’s not in the Gospels; it is shot down in the Gospels.

How about our Lord Jesus' words then...

Jhn 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

PS-I didn't realize there are degrees of "inspired writings".

[MarkBsnr]

I am quoting from the Council’s Canons.

You cannot cherry pick the canons because they are built one upon the other and lead to the truth of the conclusion.

That is the errant Protestant methodology and why there are so many different beliefs. It is only by considering the entire Bible in the manner that it was intended by the folks who amassed it, that one may arrive at the Truth.

The conclusion contains the following: after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.

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Nothing contradicts and everything is Truth. Calvinists can call a blue sky green, and Scripturally often do. You must follow the entire document. Where does the document say that grace and the Holy Spirit come from?

I really do believe that if you stuck four Protestants in a room, you guys would come up with 5 different religions.