Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Father William Most wrote an excellent article on this called
ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7273/augustin.htm
You Also said..
“”I know we have had this conversation before, but the Trestise on Predestination was one of Augustine’s last writings; one that he came to realize from Cyprian, that there is nothing that you have that you have not received. You received grace, faith, belief, works, everything. It demeans God for someone to say they give something to God when, in fact, God owns everything and give us our belief.””
Yes, we have gone through this before and for some reason you seem to think that because God owns everything he gives us that He also forces it on us.
LOVE DOES NOT FORCE ! It can only be love if it is FREELY accepted.
Dear Brother,I have limited time and no desire to go round and round with you on this again .
I wish you a Blessed day and hope all is well with you!
Translations of men.
Which translation do you subscribe to and to what do you ascribe its inerrancy?
Nov. 9, 2006 (CNA/CWNews.com) - A group of 52 biblical “specialists” have released a new version of the Bible in which inclusive language and “political correctness” have replaced some “divisive” teachings of Christianity in order to present a “more just language” for groups such as feminists and homosexuals.
According to the AFP news agency, the new version of the Sacred Scriptures was presented at a book fair in Frankfurt. Entitled, The Bible in a More Just Language, the translation has Jesus no longer referring to God as “Father,” but as “our Mother and Father who are in heaven.” Likewise, Jesus is no longer referred to as the “Son” but rather as the “child” of God. The title “Lord” is replaced with “God” or “the Eternal One.” The devil, however, is still referred to with masculine pronouns. “One of the great ideas of the Bible is justice. We have made a translation that does justice to women, Jews, and those who are disregarded,” said Pastor Hanne Koehler, who led the team of translators.
Last December, Matin Dreyer, pastor and founder of the sect “Jesus Freaks,” published the Volksbibel (The People’s Bible), in a supposed attempt to make the message of Christianity more “accessible.” Jesus “returns” instead of resurrects, and multiplies “hamburgers” instead of the fish and loaves. In the parable of the prodigal son, the younger son squanders his inheritance at dance clubs and ends up “cleaning bathrooms at McDonald’s.”
Is your Bible just? Does it speak to women, homosexuals and the disregarded? What colours its content? How do you know that it is accurate? What is your authority? What are your standards?
That is one of our points.
I cannot say that you are saved; I cannot say that you are not saved. Neither can any man about any other men.
Only the Lamb of God, our Judge, can say that.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Gal 5:22-23
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. - Matt 7:15-20
Oops, I meant the above post 6225 to be in reply to your 6212 as well. Sorry about that...
The amulets and jujus don't have power in themselves. Of course not. The remind me to take shelter under the shadow of His wings, to be still and let Him fight for me. They're just little mnemonics.
“”But to answer Augustine’s and Cyprian’s question; is faith given by God? Yes or No?””
It is Given to those who are humble enough to freely accept it.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PX.HTM
The freedom of faith
160 To be human, “man’s response to God by faith must be free, and... therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. the act of faith is of its very nature a free act.”39 “God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequently they are bound to him in conscience, but not coerced. . . This fact received its fullest manifestation in Christ Jesus.”40 Indeed, Christ invited people to faith and conversion, but never coerced them. “For he bore witness to the truth but refused to use force to impose it on those who spoke against it. His kingdom... grows by the love with which Christ, lifted up on the cross, draws men to himself.
If I may presume to advise, speak for yourself and avoid making assumptions. If you say "absolutely" to a lawyer, he will hear something other than if you say it to a starlet. Mutatis mutandis, immutable/theologian. All language is rich to someone whose first language was not English and who has spent a little time, at least, in 6 other languages of which "some are dead and some are living, in my life I've loved them all."
AFTER one of you guys developed a wonderful argument on the necessary bankruptness of our theology becuase we teach that Mary did not die
AND in the course of making that argument he completeley missrepresented the idea of "Co-redemptrix
AND
AFTER it took only seconds for me to find a quote from J2P2 saying that it was altogether fitting and proper that she die,
AND
After the pronounced absence of apology for the slander or even acknowledgement of the error
THEN
I decided not to rise to the chum you guys throw out.
Ramos and Compean were convicted partially because the judge didn't allow certain testimony into evidence. It's easy to draw conclusions which support your POV if you choose to ignore the facts that don't fit. We all slip into seeking confirmation of our prejudices. So we must commit ourselves day by day and minute by minute to Him who said, "I am ... the Truth."
Well, then, let’s pull up a seat and enjoy the show.
The modern KJV edition that you read from is probably not the 1611. It’s probably the Blayney edition of 1769. The 1611 edition of the KJV underwent various changes in 1613, 1629, 1638, 1762 and 1769. Which version of the KJV is not in error?
Also, if one claims the original 1611 KJV is the only inspired, infallible Word of God, he is claiming that Purgatory is true, since the Apocrypha was included in the 1611 version and it teaches Purgatory (2 Maccabees 12:45). Are you prepared to enter Purgatory at the end of your life, if you are judged worthy of everlasting life in Heaven?
Jude 25:
“To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen” (NIV).
“To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen” (KJV).
John 14:14:
“You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it” (NIV).
“If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it” (KJV).
a comparison between the KJV and Young’s Literal, which were both based on the TR! Acts 16:17 reads:
“The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation” (KJV).
“. . . who declare to us a way of salvation” (Young’s Literal).
Comment: The KJV (and the NIV) are both wrong according to the actual Greek rendering! The Greek does not have the definite article which would yield “the way of salvation.” Young’s Literal translation is exactly as its name indicates — a literal Greek to English rendering of this verse based on the TR — “a way of salvation.”
Dr. Robert Young wrote in the preface to the revised edition of his translation of the Bible:
“For example, in Mat. 2. 4, Herod is represented as enquiring “where Christ” should be born. But “Christ” is the surname of the man Jesus, who was quite unknown to Herod, who could not consequently ask for a person of whose existence he was ignorant. The true explanation is, that King James’ Translators omitted the definite article which occurs in the original. The correct translation is, where “the Christ” should be born. Herod knew of “the Christ,” the Messiah, the long promised Saviour and King of the Jews, and his enquiry was, where He was to be born, whose kingdom was to be over all. The simple article clears up the whole. There are about two thousand instances in the New Testament where these translators have thus omitted all notice of the definite article, not to say anything of the great number of passages where they have inserted it, though not in the original”
Also note Jn. 3:16 in Youngs, regarding the continuous tense for believe:
“For God did so love the world, that His son — the only begotten — He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.”
This translation, with the verb tenses, opens up the clear meanings of Scripture, hidden to people who only read the KJV.
Another verse from the 1611 edition of the KJV is Rev 21:8. Please note how hard it is to read:
“But the feareful, and vnbeleeuing, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all lyars, shall haue their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone which is the second death.”
In our personal library, we have a book written by Ralph Earle titled, Word Meanings in the New Testament, published by Baker Book House. He comments on the words “now full” as used in Mark 4:37 of the KJV:
“The Greek does not have the aorist tense, suggesting completed action (see the Blass-Debrunner Grammar), but the present infinitive of continuing action. So a better translation is ‘already filling up’ (NASB) or ‘nearly swamped’ (NIV). If the boat had been ‘now full’ (KJV), it would have been at the bottom of the lake!” (p. 37).
Earle also comments on the KJV rendering in Romans 8:16 of “itself” (on page 179):
“The KJV reads: ‘The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.’ The RSV changes ‘itself’ to ‘himself.’
Orthodox Christianity has always held to the deity of Jesus Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit. Modern liberalism has frequently denied both. The KJV rendering here would seem to deny the personality of the Holy Spirit, calling Him an ‘it.’ Even if one is reading the KJV in the pulpit he should always change ‘itself’ to ‘himself.’ By doing so we affirm our faith in the Holy Spirit, not as an impersonal influence, but as a living Person who dwells in our hearts.
and there are a bunch of other errors noted in more detail at http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kjvo.htm
In the future, should I then hold you to the first definition of any word that you should use? Don’t be silly.
I’ll take it upon myself to apologize to the great HarleyD that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ on earth doesn’t meet your standards as to timetable or priorities.
I’ll email BXVI and set him straight immediately.
I find that interest in the brown chunks versus the red chunks varies according to the century, whilst the consistency of the liquid slurry goes in and out of fashion more quickly.
I must apologize. I had thought that the Scriptural refutations of the Calvinistic heresy that I had posted would have made some headway into the hearts and minds of the ones I had been addressing.
But, I see that your heart is as stony as a Biblical execution, so I must do more. Maybe I’m predestined to undergo a Scriptural Groundhog Day, in which I have to convince the Calvinists of their errors on a daily basis.
Calvin on Predestination
“In Book III, Chapter XXI of his Institutes of the Christian Religion, Calvin addresses the danger of curiosity in his discussion on predestination by stating: “Human curiosity renders the discussion of predestination, already somewhat difficult of itself, very confusing and even dangerous. [Therefore] if anyone with carefree assurance breaks into this place, he will not succeed in satisfying his curiosity and he will enter a labyrinth from which he can find no exit.” (III, XXI, 1, pp. 922 23)
He follows with this solution:
“The Word of the Lord is the sole way that can lead us in our search or all that it is lawful to hold concerning him, and is the sole light to illumine our vision of all that we should see of him, it will readily keep and restrain us from all rashness; Let this, therefore, first of all be before our eyes: to seek any other knowledge of predestination than what the Word of God discloses is not less insane than if one should purpose to walk in a pathless waste, or to see in darkness” (III, XXI, 2, p. 923).
Calvin then warns against a second danger of avoiding the question of predestination by saying:
“Scripture is the school of the Holy Spirit, in which, as nothing is omitted that is both necessary and useful to know, so nothing is taught but what is expedient to know.
Therefore we must guard against depriving believers of anything disclosed about predestination in Scripture, lest we seem either wickedly to defraud them of the blessing of their God or to accuse and scoff at the Holy Spirit for having published what it is in any way profitable to suppress;
Whoever, then, heaps odium upon the doctrine of predestination openly reproaches God, as if he had unadvisedly let slip something hurtful to the church” (III, XXI, 3-4, pp. 924, 926).
Servetus would surely take that warning seriously after being burned at the stake using the “slow roast” when Calvin voted for the fast roast or smothering..
Calvin recognizes that people are evil for some reason and they will not hear God:
“In discussing the objections of those who oppose that the wicked perish by God’s ordination, Calvin replies: “We; confess that the wicked suffer nothing out of accord with God’s most righteous judgment.
Despite the fact that we do not clearly grasp the reason for this, let us not be unwilling to admit some ignorance where God’s wisdom rises to its height” (III, XXIV, 14, p. 982). To explain the cause of the hardness of the wicked’s hearts, Calvin explains:
“The fact that the reprobate do not obey God’s Word when it is made known to them will be justly charged against the malice and depravity of their hearts, provided it be added at the same time that they have been given over to this depravity because they have been raised up by the just but inscrutable judgment of God to show forth his glory in their condemnation.
God raised up Pharaoh to show forth His Wisdom. This means that God preserved and used the evil already in Pharoah and not that He made Pharaoh evil.
Oh, yes, we noted that the gods of burning, such as Molech, delighted in the screams of innocent children assigned by their parents and clergy to burn to death to the beat of music so that the priest could interpret this unknown tongue as a message from the god to the parents or to the nation.
However, Scripture says that:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to reward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient; 2 Timothy 2:24
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 2 Timothy 2:25
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Timothy 2:26
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Hebrews 6:4
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:5
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 2 Timothy Hebrews 6:6
We can fail to benefit from the Grace by our own actions:
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Heb 12:15
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. Hebrews 12:16
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. Hebrews 12:17
If Esau had no choice in losing his physical inheritance (not his salvation) then why would Paul warn people not to do what Esau did?
John Calvin: “Similarly, when it is narrated of Eli’s sons that they did not heed his wholesome admonitions, ‘for it was the will of the Lord to slay them’ (I Sam 2:25),
it is not denied that their stubbornness arose out of their own wickedness; but at the same time it is noted why they were left in their stubbornness, even though the Lord could have softened their hearts; because his immutable decree had once for all destined them to destruction.
They were decreed to destruction because of their own wickedness. It is not evil of God to leave people in the contition they have placed themselves.
John Calvin: “On the same point is John’s statement: ‘Though he had done so many signs before them, yet they did not believe in him. It was that the word of . . . Isaiah might be fulfilled: ‘’Lord, who has believed our report’ (John 12:37-33; Isa. 53:1)?; Paul’s statement confirms this: ‘Christ a stumbling block to the Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, the power and wisdom of God’ (I Cor. 1:23-24).
For when he stated what usually happens whenever the gospel is preached; namely, that it irritates some, is spurned by others; he says that it is prized only among ‘those who are called” (III, XXIV, 14, p. 981)!
When people reject the Word of God totally, he closes their eyes. However, if they were predestinated why wouldn’t God close their eyes and ears BFEFORE:
Then said I, Woe is me for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts. Isa 6:5
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Isa 6:9
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Isa 6: 10
Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, Isa 6: 11
And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. Isa 6: 12
The story of Eli: God pledged to have these two men killed but He does not speak of their eternal destiny:
Now Eli was very old, and heard all that his sons did unto all Israel; and how they lay with the women that assembled at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 1 Samuel 2:22
And he said unto them, Why do ye such things? for I hear of your evil dealings by all this people. 1 Samuel 2:23
Nay, my sons; for it is no good report that I hear: ye make the Lords people to transgress. 1 Samuel 2:24
If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the Lord, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the Lord would slay them. 1 Samuel 2:25
By reading the rest of the story we know that God planned to bring the house of Eli to an end because of the willful sin of his sons and because of Eli’s willful refusal to restrain them. That is, God “predestinated” to end Eli’s rule because Eli refused to obey God’s will:
And the Lord said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle. 1 Samuel 3:11
In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house: when I begin, I will also make an end. 1 Samuel 3:12
For I have told him that I will judge his house for ever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not. 1 Samuel 3:13
And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever. 1 Samuel 3:14
If Eli had restrained his sons they would not have sinned and God would not have brought the family rule to an end. If this does not refute Calvin then God was just speaking nonesense in the above verses. Because God meant what He said, Calvin is wrong.
When the Ark was taken and Eli’s sons were slain, he fell over dead when he heard the news:
And the ark of God was taken; and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were slain. 1 Samuel 4:11
Finaly, the “house” or family no longer served God in Shiloh which God deserted (1Kings 2:27)
John Calvin Again: Paul’s statement confirms this: ‘Christ a stumbling block to the Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, the power and wisdom of God’ (I Cor. 1:23-24). For when he stated what usually happens whenever the gospel is preached; namely, that it irritates some, is spurned by others; he says that it is prized only among ‘those who are called” (III, XXIV, 14, p. 981)!
Let us take a look at this and see if Calvin is correct:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1 Corinthians 1:23
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:24
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 1 Corinthians 1:26
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1 Corinthians 1:27
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 1 Corinthians 1:28
However, this was because they thought of themselves wise. When they turned to the Lord those who had been blind would begin to understand:
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 2 Corinthians 3:15
Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 2 Corinthians 3:16
Like the potter’s clay, some people just refuse to be molded in God’s hands. However, when wicked people headed for damnation, turn in another direction they are headed toward salvation:
And there ye shall serve gods, the work of mens hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. Deuteronomy 4:28
But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. Deuteronomy 4:29
When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; Deuteronomy 4:30
(For the Lord thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. Deuteronomy 4:31
The purpose of John and Jesus was to turn those heading to destruction into the way of righteousness. If they were headed into destruction and Christ did not come would they be lost? Then the coming and death of Jesus Christ was in vain.
If they were “already predestinated” and Jesus couldn’t turn them didn’t He die in vain. Of John the Baptist, it was prophesied:
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mothers womb. Luke 1:15
And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. Luke 1:16
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Luke 1:17
And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Hebrews 2:13
If the lost continued to be lost and the saved continued to be saved then John surely wasted his time and life!
with thanks to: http://www.piney.com/calvin.html
AMEN!!!
Once I figured that out (and it took me a looong time) so much of life fell into place. Things made sense. I can't work long enough, hard enough, piously enough to earn God's favor. But miraculously, I've understood Jesus Christ did those things for me. And amazingly, it is that knowledge that compels me to work longer and harder and more devotedly, in gratitude for His glorious gift.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
What greater motivation is there?
It is not wise for anyone to claim credit for even a smidgen of good that might come out of his life
We humans are a clever bunch. We can even claim credit for not claiming credit.
;)
I can't deny there aren't poor, if not fraudulant, Bibles out there. I have thrown some of them in the trash myself. But this is not the middle ages when we had no Bibles. Heck, it's not even 50 years ago when there were only a few translations. While there are numerous translations on the market now (even the Catholics have several), anybody today can go to a number of websites and look directly at the original text and it will show you the precise meaning of the text. You don't have to be a Greek or Hebrew scholar. Your argument is, IMO, mute.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.