Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[annalex]

I would say that we lose the fellowship of the Holy Spirit when we commit a mortal sin, and we regain it when we are absolved from that sin. I would not say that the Holy Spirit is like food or drink or clothing literally, as it is a supernatural presence.

[MarkBsnr]

I have a Palm Pilot and program in all kinds of recurring appointments and tasks and reminders. It would do my ego absolutely no good whatsoever to have a little reminder every hour or every day or so to tell me how wonderful I am.

A robot slave wife, appealing as it is on one level, would rapidly become repugnant.

I really wonder at the mindset of a theological thug who would postulate such a thing, and then wonder even more at others who would find it attractive.

[MarkBsnr]

Darn. I thought we had won another convert over by our wit, our knowledge and our incredible good looks.

[Seven_0]

O.K.. What is Life?.. Biologists say life is merely living DNA..

I'll keep that in mind as I try to come up with a definition of life.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

These people are referred to as dead before they go through the second death.

Seven.

[MarkBsnr]

The Church does not restrict salvation. It is not up to her to do so or no.

We received the rules and the process from Jesus Christ Himself.

Rom 8:

28
We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
29
For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30
And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.

These verses outline the Christian vocation as it was designed by God: to be conformed to the image of his Son, who is to be the firstborn among many brothers (Romans 8:29). God’s redemptive action on behalf of the believers has been in process before the beginning of the world. Those whom God chooses are those he foreknew (Romans 8:29) or elected. Those who are called (Romans 8:30) are predestined or predetermined. These expressions do not mean that God is arbitrary. Rather, Paul uses them to emphasize the thought and care that God has taken for the Christian’s salvation.

Also: We know that all things work for good for those who love God: a few ancient authorities have God as the subject of the verb, and some translators render: “We know that God makes everything work for good for those who love God. . . .”

Revelation 7:

4
I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked from every tribe of the Israelites:
5
twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,
6
twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,
7
twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,
8
twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Benjamin.
9
After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
10
They cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation comes from our God, who is seated on the throne, and from the Lamb.”

---

I too believe in the inclusivity of God. Only those who are determined to go to hell will.

[MarkBsnr]

It is unlikely that we can fully conceive of hell any more than we can conceive of Heaven, at least not until we experience them.

[hosepipe]

[.. I would say that we lose the fellowship of the Holy Spirit when we commit a mortal sin ..]

IF... thinking lustfully is literally as bad as commiting lust.. what then is a mortal sin?.. or venal sin for that matter..

[MarkBsnr]

Not the Church. Jesus Christ instructed Peter and the Apostles. If you have a problem with the forgiveness of sin by the ordained, you’ll have to take it up with Him. We’re following His instructions, not Calvin’s or anybody else’s.

[hosepipe]

[.. These people are referred to as dead before they go through the second death. ..]

O.K.. I'll ask you again what is LIFE?..
A living human is alive.. What is LIFE..
A dead human is dead..... What is death?..

But What is life is what I asked you?..
Dead is merely not being alive.. I know that already..

[hosepipe]

[.. It is unlikely that we can fully conceive of hell any more than we can conceive of Heaven, at least not until we experience them. ..]

I agree.. then a lake of fire then, "could be" a metaphor of "something else".. i.e. less anthropomorphic than a lake of fire but even more "real"..

[jo kus]

OK, and this does lead me to ask what happens if the mortal sin is not taken care of, and the person dies and goes to hell. What happens to the indwelling Spirit in that case?

We presume that the indwelling Spirit is not there, since a person who does not possess Christ is without life (1 john 5:`12) - thus, a deadly sin means one has "killed" that life within them. One without life (spiritual) is without Christ, and thus, without the Spirit.

Regards

[jo kus]

The salvation model is indeed the same, but the Chruch was not there for the Old Testament folk as an ordinary means of grace.

The Old Testament rituals were a shadow of the good things to come...Same model, more catholic (univerally applied to all men, not just Jews), perfect sacrifice, eternally sufficient for all men. The New Covenant rituals replace the OT rituals (sacraments) - a perfection of what the OT rituals once pointed to.

Regards

[MarkBsnr]

Okay, so what if we don’t?

If you, F-K have the indwelling knowledge that you are of the elect and you are going to get to Heaven and there’s nothing that anyone can do about it, what if you don’t go and evangelize? What if you don’t do as you are commanded?

Actually, you don’t, not entirely, because you are in a state of sin right now, just as I and every other human is.

[MarkBsnr]

Make sure that He has his suitcase with him.

If you’re bound and determined to go to hell, then your free will accomodate you.

[annalex]

Mortal sin is an act, inaction, speech, or thought done knowing that it offends God with full cooperation of the will. As Wikipedia puts it,

In all Catholic moral theology, a mortal sin, as distinct from a venial sin, must meet all of the following conditions:

• its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter;
• it must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense;
• it must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.

  (Mortal sin)

When ther is an offense but it is insignificant, or unintended, or done out of ignorance, then the sin is venial.

Human physiology provides plenty of examples of venial sin. Unintended exposure to nudity, for example, leads to arousal which is morally neutral, -- it simply indicates one has a healthy libido. Lustful thoughts entertained following the arousal might be hard to control, that is venial sin. Taking a decision to seek out more of such scenes in order to experience more lustful thoughts becomes mortal sin, because now a decision has been freely made.

[Seven_0]

What is death?..

Good question. You will note that in all the resurrections in scripture, no one gave testimony of what it was like to die or be dead. I believe that it is purposely shrouded in mystery to illustrate what Christ would go through at the cross. It was outside of his experience both as man and as God. As for what is life? You and I can both draw from the same pool of knowledge for a definition

Dead is merely not being alive.. I know that already..

Dead implies that something was alive first. You cannot have a dead rock. This is why birth must come before death and death must come before resurrection. This does not bode well for those who say that we are spiritually dead before we are born again.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God." -- 1 Peter 2:15-16

Precious instruction. Food for my thirsty soul.

Amen. What greater encouragement is there than to know our productive lives are the result of His grace?

WHATE'ER MY GOD ORDAINS IS RIGHT

[hosepipe]

I wonder if dividing sin into category's defeats the purpose of the concept and is itself a sin?..
Since you MUST be perfect as you're father in heaven is perfect.. as it is written..
Perfection allows ZERO sin..

You know, prevarication of the ministry of Christ..

[Dr. Eckleburg]

OK, and this does lead me to ask what happens if the mortal sin is not taken care of, and the person dies and goes to hell. What happens to the indwelling Spirit in that case?

What a great question. And of course, there is no answer for it because the premise is all wrong.

If the Holy Spirit indwells a man, that man will, at a time of God's choosing, be surely brought home. We have His promise for that.

"...even to morrow the LORD will shew who are His, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him." -- Numbers 16:5

[hosepipe]

[.. This is why birth must come before death and death must come before resurrection. This does not bode well for those who say that we are spiritually dead before we are born again. ..]

Life in the body vs. life in the spirit..
"Life" could be the ultimate metaphor.. What is life?..
Is a carrot dead when we eat it or was it ever "alive" at all?..
Spiritually dead could also be a metaphor.. as is born again..
To explain things too deep for us to understand now..