Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[Forest Keeper]

I couldn’t resist offering a few Scriptures to underscore the points you’ve raised – and to add that man is neither spiritually alive nor spiritually aware until He is reborn.

Thank you so much for the wonderful scriptures, AG!

Among Dr. E., Mark, and myself, I'm not sure if we are going to be able to be in full agreement here, but as a gesture of friendship and open-mindedness, I will go so far as to say that at least two of us can be. :)

[hosepipe]

Why would they keep them when the Lord clearly told them that they will cast demons in His name...? ..]

Religious lying demons are cast out daily from some..
Idolotrous lying demons are cast of others..
Even demons that are imposters of the Holy Spirit are cast out..

Some christian religion is wholly a pagan scam, a lie..
Some are POSSESSED from their youth by this/these DEMONS..
That entered them by catechesis..

[blue-duncan]

“We can all say that we know “love.”

Who Said Anything About Love?

What I said was “A work of Grace in the soul discovereth itself, either to him that hath it, or to standers-by.”

To others it is thus discovered:

1. By an experimental confession of his Faith in Christ. (Romans 10:10, Phil. 1:27, Matt. 5:19)

2. By a life answerable to that confession, to wit, a life of holiness, heart-holiness, family-holiness, (if he hath a Family) and by conversation-holiness, in the World; which in the general teacheth him, inwardly to abhor his sin, and himself for that in secret, to suppress it in his Family, and to promote holiness in the World; not by talk only, as an hypocrite or talkative person may do, but by a practical subjection, in Faith and Love, to the power of the Word: (John 14:15, Psalm 50:23, Job 42:5-6, Ezek. 20:43).

[D-fendr]

Any time I say that we have free will concerning salvation, I mean it is meaningful because we experience "normal" free will. It is fully real for us, regardless of what is going on behind the scenes in God's reality.

There's always hindsight, we never are totally aware of all factors and motivations. But if you're saying we can't trust our experience, that it's not real, but an illusion..

Then I can just as validly say: "Actually, FK, you experience your free will now as an illusion, as God's will, but that's just your 'experience' of it." And, of course we can't place any reality in that.

It might as well all be a dream.

Your position fails in a performance contradiction: Your experience proves you can't trust your experience.

[TKDietz]

That’s one of the big problems with religion. Your’s is right and therefore everyone else’s has to be wrong. It doesn’t bother me though until people start believing their god wants them to go out and bother me, or worse, kill people that don’t believe just like they believe.

[Forest Keeper]

Bruce came to understand that he does not belong in control of anything of God's providence because that is God's job, realized that he was completely a victim of fate, became catatonic, and now has his own room at Atascadero State Hospital.

COOL!!! I am DEFINITELY going to have to rent that movie again now that I'm a Calvinist. :)

[wmfights]

Indeed. God is the only possible uncaused cause.

Isn't it GLORIOUS!

There was nothing and with a thought it all began. I can't imagine the awe of being near the creator of all things.

[xzins]

I, of course, do think that Christianity is right, Judaism is partially right, and the rest are wrong.

Within Christianity the various denominations all contain Christians, imho, and whatever share of tares is their lot.

[Forest Keeper]

You: "Without this plank in the theology, its logic results in God killing innocent children."

Me: "Who that has been created since Adam is "innocent" in God's eyes?"

You: "Um, I think you're illustrating my point."

Then I'm confused. I was focusing on the word "innocent", and meant that God does not kill innocent children, because, there ARE NO innocent children, in the relevant sense here. We hold that God determines the day of our conception and the day of our death. How would you say those things are determined, if at all? Are they just the happenstance of life?

[wmfights]

And I was trying to figure the relationship between belief and repentance, and it seems clear that one necessarily forces the other.

That's a great point. The individual first comes to belief then recognition of their fallen state.

However, our EO and RC FRiends believe their priests can place the Holy Spirit into the infant at Baptism, by those magical powers they claim to have. So they would by their mystical powers force the Holy Spirit into someone who has not believed yet and repented. Doesn't seem consistent with SCRIPTURE.

[wmfights]

I have no doubt that Orthodox translators have translated everything there is into words that match what the Church wants to hear.

In the end we both know it all gets down to their claim everybody must do and believe what they say.

In fact, as a Baptist, I do not even scream bloody murder at triple dunking. I wouldn't say "that counts as three baptisms, so it's no good", or something like that. If you want to triple dunk at one time, then go for it. I won't call you names.

You mean you won't put to death other Christians because they insist that a person must first BELIEVE and REPENT before being baptized. ;-0

[Dr. Eckleburg]

What happens to you internally, what you believe, is no proof of anything

Your argument is against Scripture...again. Jesus Christ tells us a good tree will produce good fruit, and a corrupt tree will produce evil fruit.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -- Matthew 7:16-20

Again, as Christ tells us, "good works" are the evidence of our faith, not a requirement for it.

What is in question is not this fact, given to us by Christ Himself, but in what actually makes up "good fruit" and "evil fruit."

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" -- Isaiah 5:20

Further, we have Paul telling us that "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23)

So we can conclude that good fruits, done by and for and through the faith of Jesus Christ, are indeed "good" because they are according to the will of God...

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13

Which again points to the startling lack of faith Mother Teresa somehow evidenced for the last 40 years of her life and may explain why she was able to (wrongly) preach the validity of Hinduism. And so we may conclude that her acts of charity were empty (even for herself, evidently) because they were not done "by faith."

These are the "rules" God set down in Scripture, Kosta. Your argument continues to be with Him, not with those who preach His word.

As I was reading Isaiah 5 for the above quote, I found this verse. Is there any writing as beautiful as the King James Bible?

"Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.

Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:

But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

Then shall the lambs feed after their manner, and the waste places of the fat ones shall strangers eat.

Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope" -- Isaiah 5:11-18

"...them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity..."

"Vanity, definitely my favorite sin." -- Al Pacino as Satan in "The Devil's Advocate."

[D-fendr]

God does not kill innocent children, because, there ARE NO innocent children

Still illustrating the point of how key this plank is in TULIP.

It's so fundamental that you miss seeing the concept that God does not kill innocent children, because God does not kill innocent children.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Had her letters not been disclosed, her fruits would have been used as "proof" of God working through her

Nonsense. Her letters confirm the fact that what she did for over 40 years was not "of faith," and thus she was comfortable preaching "another Gospel."

In the end, Mother Teresa was remarkably consistent.

[D-fendr]

And to make this work in TULIP, you require that there "ARE NO innocent children."

The next trick is how God avoids a millstone around His neck.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Stockholm syndrome??? :) No, no, no. LOL! We're OK, REALLY. :) This is backwards. With Stockholm syndrome, the bad guys kidnap the good guys and then they change into bad guys (Patty Hearst). In the case of God, the good guys kidnap the bad guys, and then THEY turn into good guys. It's all in reverse and it all comes out for GOOD! :)

Amen! And further, how can anything be stronger or more reassuring than the words of Christ Himself?

"And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" -- Luke 11:9-13

And the promise and assurance and certainty just keep on coming to those who have been given ears to hear His word...

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." -- Hebrews 9:14-15

[wmfights]

It's the invisible fruits again...There are millions, even billions of people who swear their experience is just as real and they are not Christian.

I mean this in all sincerity. I do respect you intellect, just not your conclusions.

Have you ever just gone off by yourself and prayed to our LORD and asked him to reveal to you whether you are one of his?

[Mad Dawg]

It's a fine thought. Pope is as good a proponent for urbane skepticism as any and better than most.

Of course the stock answer is that "the poor Indian" has a defect of hope, a kind of despair, technically speaking. The hope of a happy hunting grounds with the faithful dog at one's side is a meager one compared to the hope of near-godly status enjoyed in ever increasing union with the font of life, Love, Beauty, Truth, Justice and every good thing.

For us, the moment when cold beer first runs down a parched and salty throat, when thirst well-earned meets its perfectly apt assuaging is rare and instantaneous. The next gulp of beer, while admittedly excellent, is not so perfect as that cool bitterness washing away the salt dust in a parched throat.

The promise we look for is the eternal meeting of longing with satisfaction - never an unmet need, and never statiation or cloy, but for ever the meeting of human need and Divine supply.

Pope is attractive but wrong, and just as we say that there is something wrong with a man in his prime who cannot read, so we find in "the poor Indian" not vice, but undeveloped virtue and attenuated and asthenic hope.

Not that having my faithful dog bear me company is bad -- not at all. But I, dog that I am, look for my master to allow me in faith to bear HIM company, and to make me ever more like Him.

[wmfights]

That’s one of the big problems with religion. Your’s is right and therefore everyone else’s has to be wrong. It doesn’t bother me though until people start believing their god wants them to go out and bother me, or worse, kill people that don’t believe just like they believe.

You raise an interesting point that gets discussed a great deal. I believe you will not find in the New Testament any instructions to go out and kill those who do not believe as you do. The New Testament instructs Christians to preach the gospel.

It was the politically controlled organizations that pursued the practice of killing those who refused to believe as they wanted. In Christianity those churches that were as much political organizations as religious have been neutered. The current example of a religion as a political entity is Islam.

[kosta50]

So you admit that was weak?..

Weakness is relative.