Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[hosepipe]

[.. yup, like the witness testimony in the Salem witch trials. ..]

I am NO protestant... Wiccans are as legal as Masons..

[.. Don't you find it weird that you believe some propagandists but refuse to believe the word of The Church Fathers who lived under persecution? ..]

What you call church fathers or hand me down apostles I do not accept as apostles, brothers maybe, but not apostles.. .. its not strange at all.. Many were persecuted that held strange ideas.. But then strange is in the perception.. I am suspicious of dogma, most any dogma..

[D-fendr]

I am suspicious of dogma, most any dogma..

That's a very dogmatic statement. :)

I'm guessing it's not the set of beliefs you oppose, certainly not your own, but dogma defined by an authority?

[hosepipe]

[.. Certainly not your religion? So, it's another definition of religion that you must be referring to. I'm wondering what is it that makes religion not the type of religion you would be part of? ..]

Jesus came to establish a family not a religion.. Religion was tried already with Judaism.. didn't work.. Too cynical?.. Maybe..

[.. Is it any institutionalization that crosses the line for you? Or authority of some kind - any offices, preachers, etc? Is a congregation, in the usual sense, part of the bad definition of religion? ..]

I see christian religion as a club.. Jesus did not forbid clubs.. it is part of the plan, I guess.. Seven churchs in Asia (Rev).. He(Jesus) was not happy about them generally either.. Revelation is The Vision of Jesus Christ(Rev ch1;1)..

[.. Would you consider Southern Baptist or the Episcopal Church "religions" in the perjorative sense? ..]

As I said above.. I see them as clubs and/or cults.. all of them.. What do I do about it?.. Nothing.. Thats not my job.. Some clubs have produced some good things I suppose.. I've tried them.. many of them.. not good for me.. I'm just sharing my thoughts here.. probably wouldn't share this way visiting one of the "clubs".. Would be disrespectful.. and wrong in that setting.. People have the freedom to meet however they want to..

[hosepipe]

[.. That's a very dogmatic statement. :) ..]

LoL.. true.. DOH!..

Spiritual authority is given by the Holy Spirit.. its not an appointed occupation.. I think.. Hopefully I can recognize a valid authority.. At least I pray I can.. I think I do.. God help me if I do not..

[D-fendr]

Ok.

But if you try to claim yourself as some religious authority, spout dogma or, Heaven forbid, start the Hosepipian Christian Church, I’m gonna call ya on it..

:)

[Forest Keeper]

The NT tells us that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Baptism by the Spirit is necessary for salvation, but not by water. Baptists see the water baptism as being symbolic of the already accomplished Spirit baptism.

[hosepipe]

[.. But if you try to claim yourself as some religious authority, spout dogma or, Heaven forbid, start the Hosepipian Christian Church, I’m gonna call ya on it.. ..]

"So be it, so let it be written.." -Popepipus I..

[D-fendr]

Hosepopipus?

I dunno, “Thou art Hosepipe and upon this rock..” doesn’t have quite the same ring..

{^_^}

[Cronos]

That’s Phil, the Prince of insufficient light. He darns people to Heck.

More Dilbert fans, eh? WEll, SOMETHING we can agree on :)

[Cronos]

Perhaps Calvinism does appeal to you. I would pose one question: for the “elect” — why isn’t it possible that this group is already filled, was already filled centuries ago and the rest of us are not the “elect”? All of us?

[Cronos]

You do realize that the only way God can claim "ignorance" (LOL!) is if there is another "god" who fathered the reprobate

Which sounds too much like Lord of the Rings and the Dwarfs...

[Cronos]

It was only after the Reformation and religious wars had ended that state power was not used to force Christians to comply with one Church's dictates.

You're kidding right? After the "Reformation", local princes took over -- the petty German and HAnseatic and Scandanavian princes were itching for some reason to control the wealth in the Church (remember that King Henry VIII robbed the monasteries, and that was one of his reasons to break away from The Church). State power was used after that. Before the 1500s, the Church by virtue of being separate from the state, gave Europe a chance to have independence instead of religious and political power being concentrated in one person, like the King of England.


Among the "Christians", you portray as being "persecuted" by the Church, the Abigensians and Hussites were Gnostics, not Christians. Ditto for the others

[Cronos]

The Huguenots were persecuted by the Government of France.

[Forest Keeper]

MHG: "You may thank Elsie for that beauty. I lifted it from an Elsie post that was so very 'to the point'. "

Elsie: "I did?? My Alzheimer's now is in a state where I may hide my own Easter Eggs!"

Don't worry about it. I consider it a full blessing when one cannot even keep track of one's own genius, as there is so much of it. :)

[Cronos]

And all that persecution could have been avoided had they simply chosen to remain illiterate --- Biblically illiterate.

So, you associate yourself with the Albigensians, eh? Well, here's what they believed in: The Cathars claimed there existed within mankind a spark of divine light. This light, or spirit, had fallen into captivity within a realm of corruption — identified with the physical body and world. This was a distinct feature of classical Gnosticism, of Manichaeism and of the theology of the Bogomils. This concept of the human condition within Catharism was most probably due to direct and indirect historical influences from these older (and sometimes also violently suppressed) Gnostic movements. According to the Cathars, the world had been created by a lesser deity, much like the figure known in classical Gnostic myth as the Demiurge. This creative force was identified with the Old Testament God and was not the "True God", though he claimed for himself the title of the "one and only God". The Cathars identified this lesser deity, the Demiurge, with Satan. (Most forms of classical Gnosticism had not made this explicit link between the Demiurge and Satan).

Essentially, the Cathars believed that the Old Testament God of Jews and Christians was an imposter, and His worship was a corrupt abomination infused by the failings of the material realm. Spirit — the vital essence of humanity — was thus trapped in a polluted world created by a usurper God and ruled by his corrupt minions.

While this is the understanding of Cathar theology related by the Catholic Church, crucial to the study of the Cathars is their fundamental disagreement over the meaning of "resurrection". In the book Massacre at Montsegur (a book widely regarded by medievalists as having a pro-Cathar bias) the Cathars are referred to as "Western Buddhists" because of their belief in "re-incarnation" and non-violence.[1] Such were the disagreements that eventually led to the extermination of the sect.

the hussites were primarily a political movement while Paulicians denied the Trinity.

Do you agree with any of these?

[Cronos]

It is hilarious that Uncle Chip and hosepipe seem to consider people who are plainly Gnostics as people on “their (UC and hose’s) side”. A little research into what those groups stood for tells us that they were NOT Christian in any way. Next UC and hosepipe would support the other great heresy that did get by, Islam.

[Cronos]

As Christians we should always strive to resolve our differences peacefully.

Agreed. There have been atrocities (and I use that word) on BOTH sides. But no more, there should not be any more Christian on Christian physical violence. We can disagree, argue etc., but at the end of the day, you are free to believe what you wish.

[Cronos]

Power and the wealth in the monasteries.

Remember that 300 years earlier, the French King had done the same thing to the Knights Templar.

[Forest Keeper]

If I were Pope, could I damn P-Marlowe to hell if I knew that he was a serial killer that made Jeffrey Dahmer look like a choir boy? Nope. That’s what the Judgment is for.

Just to follow up from my other post, why couldn't you, as Pope, or you, as the Church, condemn anyone to hell? I mean, wouldn't that just be a binding on earth?

[Cronos]

There are tons of cults out there based on Sola Scriptura — i.e. each man’s interpretation of the Bible. E.g. the Reverent Moon, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.