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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years?

Wednesday, 11 July 2007

Yesterday's Reuters headline: "The Vatican on Tuesday said Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ." The actual proclamation, posted on the official Vatican Web site, says that Protestant Churches are really "ecclesial communities" rather than Churches, because they lack apostolic succession, and therefore they "have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery." Furthermore, not even the Eastern Orthodox Churches are real Churches, even though they were explicitly referred to as such in the Vatican document Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism). The new document explains that they were only called Churches because "the Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term." This new clarification, issued officially by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but in fact strongly supported by Pope Benedict XVI, manages to insult both Protestants and the Orthodox, and it may set ecumenism back a hundred years.

The new document, officially entitled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," claims that the positions it takes do not reverse the intent of various Vatican II documents, especially Unitatis Redintegratio, but merely clarify them. In support of this contention, it cites other documents, all issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Mysterium Ecclesiae (1973), Communionis notio (1992), and Dominus Iesus (2000). The last two of these documents were issued while the current pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, was prefect of the Congregation. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was born in 1542 with the name Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition, and for centuries it has operated as an extremely conservative force with the Roman Catholic Church, opposing innovation and modernizing tendencies, suppressing dissent, and sometimes, in its first few centuries, persecuting those who believed differently. More recently, the congregation has engaged in the suppression of some of Catholicism's most innovative and committed thinkers, such as Yves Congar, Hans Küng, Charles Curran, Matthew Fox, and Jon Sobrino and other liberation theologians. In light of the history of the Congregation of the Faith, such conservative statements as those released this week are hardly surprising, though they are quite unwelcome.

It is natural for members of various Christian Churches to believe that the institutions to which they belong are the best representatives of Christ's body on earth--otherwise, why wouldn't they join a different Church? It is disingenuous, however, for the leader of a Church that has committed itself "irrevocably" (to use Pope John Paul II's word in Ut Unum Sint [That They May Be One] 3, emphasis original) to ecumenism to claim to be interested in unity while at the same time declaring that all other Christians belong to Churches that are in some way deficient. How different was the attitude of Benedict's predecessors, who wrote, "In subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church--for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3). In Benedict's view, at various times in history groups of Christians wandered from the original, pure Roman Catholic Church, and any notion of Christian unity today is predicated on the idea of those groups abandoning their errors and returning to the Roman Catholic fold. The pope's problem seems to be that he is a theologian rather than a historian. Otherwise he could not possibly make such outrageous statements and think that they were compatible with the spirit of ecumenism that his immediate predecessors promoted.

One of the pope's most strident arguments against the validity of other Churches is that they can't trace their bishops' lineages back to the original apostles, as the bishops in the Roman Catholic Church can. There are three problems with this idea.

First, many Protestants deny the importance of apostolic succession as a guarantor of legitimacy. They would argue that faithfulness to the Bible and/or the teachings of Christ is a better measure of authentic Christian faith than the ability to trace one's spiritual ancestry through an ecclesiastical bureaucracy. A peripheral knowledge of the lives of some of the medieval and early modern popes (e.g., Stephen VI, Sergius III, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI) is enough to call the insistence on apostolic succession into serious question. Moreover, the Avignon Papacy and the divided lines of papal claimants in subsequent decades calls into serious question the legitimacy of the whole approach. Perhaps the strongest argument against the necessity of apostolic succession comes from the Apostle Paul, who was an acknowledged apostle despite not having been ordained by one of Jesus' original twelve disciples. In fact, Paul makes much of the fact that his authority came directly from Jesus Christ rather than from one of the apostles (Gal 1:11-12). Apostolic succession was a useful tool for combating incipient heresy and establishing the antiquity of the churches in particular locales, but merely stating that apostolic succession is a necessary prerequisite for being a true church does not make it so.

The second problem with the new document's insistence upon apostolic succession is the fact that at least three other Christian communions have apostolic succession claims that are as valid as that of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches, which split from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054, can trace their lineages back to the same apostles that the Roman Catholic Church can, a fact acknowledged by Unitatis Redintegratio 14. The Oriental Orthodox Churches, such as the Coptic and Ethiopic Orthodox Churches, split from the Roman Catholic Church several centuries earlier, but they too can trace their episcopal lineages back to the same apostles claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as its founders. Finally, the Anglican Church, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII, can likewise trace the lineage of every bishop back through the first archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. In addition to these three collections of Christian Churches, the Old Catholics and some Methodists also see value in the idea of apostolic succession, and they can trace their episcopal lineages just as far back as Catholic bishops can.

The third problem with the idea of apostolic succession is that the earliest bishops in certain places are simply unknown, and the lists produced in the third and fourth centuries that purported to identify every bishop back to the founding of the church in a particular area were often historically unreliable. Who was the founding bishop of Byzantium? Who brought the gospel to Alexandria? To Edessa? To Antioch? There are lists that give names (e.g., http://www.friesian.com/popes.htm), such as the Apostles Mark (Alexandria), Andrew (Byzantium), and Thaddeus (Armenia), but the association of the apostles with the founding of these churches is legendary, not historical. The most obvious breakdown of historicity in the realm of apostolic succession involves none other than the see occupied by the pope, the bishop of Rome. It is certain that Peter did make his way to Rome before the time of Nero, where he perished, apparently in the Neronian persecution following the Great Fire of Rome, but it is equally certain that the church in Rome predates Peter, as it also predates Paul's arrival there (Paul also apparently died during the Neronian persecution). The Roman Catholic Church may legitimately claim a close association with both Peter and Paul, but it may not legitimately claim that either was the founder of the church there. The fact of the matter is that the gospel reached Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Edessa, and other early centers of Christianity in the hands of unknown, faithful Christians, not apostles, and the legitimacy of the churches established there did not suffer in the least because of it.

All the talk in the new document about apostolic succession is merely a smokescreen, however, for the main point that the Congregation of the Faith and the pope wanted to drive home: recognition of the absolute primacy of the pope. After playing with the words "subsists in" (Lumen Gentium [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church] 8) and "church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 14) in an effort to make them mean something other than what they originally meant, the document gets down to the nitty-gritty. "Since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches." From an ecumenical standpoint, this position is a non-starter. Communion with Rome and acknowledging the authority of the pope as bishop of Rome is a far different matter from recognizing the pope as the "visible head" of the entire church, without peer. The pope is an intelligent man, and he knows that discussions with other Churches will make no progress on the basis of this prerequisite, so the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the pope, despite his protestations, has no interest in pursuing ecumenism. Trying to persuade other Christians to become Roman Catholics, which is evidently the pope's approach to other Churches, is not ecumenism, it's proselytism.

Fortunately, this document does not represent the viewpoint of all Catholics, either laypeople or scholars. Many ordinary Catholics would scoff at the idea that other denominations were not legitimate Churches, which just happen to have different ideas about certain topics and different ways of expressing a common Christianity. Similarly, many Catholic scholars are doing impressive work in areas such as theology, history, biblical study, and ethics, work that interacts with ideas produced by non-Catholic scholars. In the classroom and in publications, Catholics and non-Catholics learn from each other, challenge one another, and, perhaps most importantly, respect one another.

How does one define the Church? Christians have many different understandings of the term, and Catholics are divided among themselves, as are non-Catholics. The ecumenical movement is engaged in addressing this issue in thoughtful, meaningful, and respectful ways. Will the narrow-minded view expressed in "Responses" be the death-knell of the ecumenical movement? Hardly. Unity among Christians is too important an idea to be set aside. Will the document set back ecumenical efforts? Perhaps, but Christians committed to Christian unity--Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike--will get beyond it. The ecumenical movement is alive and well, and no intemperate pronouncement from the Congregation of the Faith, or the current pope, can restrain it for long. Even if ecumenism, at least as it involves the Roman Catholic Church's connection with other Churches, is temporarily set back a hundred years, that distance can be closed either by changes of heart or changes of leadership.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: apostolic; catholic; fascinatedwcatholics; givemerome; obsessionwithrome; papistsrule; pope; protestant; solascriptura
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To: irishtenor

Do you believe that you wil answer for your sins before the Lamb of God?


4,401 posted on 08/26/2007 7:20:28 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Why would you pray?An excellent question.
God commands it.
Jesus modeled it.
God uses ordained prayer as a means to accomplish His purposes.

Why would you pray?

4,402 posted on 08/26/2007 7:20:41 PM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: MarkBsnr

Good question. Let me respond by quoting Romans 6. “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.”

I am free from the bonds of sin, and free from the wrath of God, because Jesus took it all away. When I stand before the throne, I will stand with Jesus at my side. My sanctification on earth will lead to eternal life.

My turn: Which of your sins did Jesus not pay for?


4,403 posted on 08/26/2007 7:25:12 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: MarkBsnr

All of my sins were paid for at the Cross - past, present, future. Does that mean that I desire to sin because my Savior has already paid the price? NO. Why? Because the indwelling Holy Spirit molds my will to desire holiness.


4,404 posted on 08/26/2007 7:25:20 PM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: MarkBsnr; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine; Kitty Mittens
[.. And "you people" claim that the LDS are weird. ..]

Well the LDS IS WEIRD.. as are JW's, Scientology, a hundred other denominations, cults, sects, and ministrys's... and by the way the Roman Cathloic church is quite wierd itself..

Christians can BE wierd.. Jesus did'nt say don't be wierd.. Thats WHY most/many are.. Weird, of course, is perception.. Weirdness hangs with weirdness.. Conservative weirdness, liberal weirdness, and radical weirdness... The Jews, bless their heart, think ALL us christians are weird.. And to a certain extent they are correct..

4,405 posted on 08/26/2007 7:26:43 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: suzyjaruki

I pray because Jesus commanded it.

I believe that I, as the prophets of old, in conjuction with Heavenly aid, can move God to my aid.

Our Father,
Who art in Heaven
Hallowed be thy Name
Thy Kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses.
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

Amen.

If God has molded the universe in a static concrete mold, then prayers are of no avail since everything has been ordained and nothing is of effect. The Lord’s prayer means nothing either, since God, under Calvin’s rules, has already done whatever He will and nothing we do can make a difference.


4,406 posted on 08/26/2007 7:27:00 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: irishtenor

He paid for all of them.

But I am still answerable for them. NAB Rev 20:

11
Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them.
12
I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.
13
The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades 11 gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.

We’re all going to have to pay a price for our deeds. Jesus made it possible for us to get to heaven. But when we are in front of the Lamb, we are Judged as to our deeds.


4,407 posted on 08/26/2007 7:30:22 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: suzyjaruki

Then why do you desire to sin?


4,408 posted on 08/26/2007 7:31:36 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr; irishtenor

I’ll say “good night” for now but I would love to discuss this with you tomorrow. I need to spend some time on my knees before I hit the sack. Prayer time for a Calvinist is sweet because God loves us. Afterall, He chose us and asks us to come to Him.


4,409 posted on 08/26/2007 7:34:16 PM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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To: All

My darling wife is getting impatient and I must away.

Thank you all for the discourse and may we, with God’s help and inspiration, take it up again when we can.

May God bless you all.

Mark


4,410 posted on 08/26/2007 7:35:35 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr

***We’re all going to have to pay a price for our deeds.***

Jesus paid the price. If we are found guilty on one sin, we will die and go to hell. We may suffer some consequences while on earth for the deeds we do, but there is nothing we can pay to get to heaven.

****The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades 11 gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.***

Where are the one who died in Christ? They are before the throne. It says that the sea, death and Hades give up the dead. The living are with Christ already. The dead are judged, not the living. They are already in heaven.


4,411 posted on 08/26/2007 7:35:59 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: irishtenor
I will, however, pray to my God, whom you believe to be a fabrication as well, that the Holy Spirit will come upon you.

God Bless You brother!

All things are possible with the LORD.

4,412 posted on 08/26/2007 8:05:49 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: wmfights

I was pretty heavy handed with him, and not too happy with myself for being so.


4,413 posted on 08/26/2007 8:13:51 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: irishtenor
he is not surprised at anything.

True.. so to God it's not prophecy, only to us.

4,414 posted on 08/26/2007 8:24:06 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr

I believe, and I hope you do, too, that God transcends time. He is aware of the entire scope of our history. He has set in motion all the things necessary to accomplish his will.


4,415 posted on 08/26/2007 8:30:25 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: D-fendr

By the way, I am enjoying our conversation, unlike others who want to make snide remarks and fabrications about my belief.


4,416 posted on 08/26/2007 8:32:00 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: irishtenor
I was pretty heavy handed with him, and not too happy with myself for being so.

I really don't think so. Any "Christian" who revels in the persecution of other Christians really isn't serious about anything other than their exclusive club. Our Saviour could have made the new covenant anyway he wanted. He could have walked into the Temple and made himself the head of a hierarchy with all kinds of "traditions" and special rules with an elite that make all future determinations on what is "right thinking" and what isn't. JESUS didn't do that.

Jesus used a bunch of ignorant peasants from a backwater part of Israel and later brought in a persecutor who became persecuted. He eliminated all the complicated rules and regulations and made it simple.

John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

But then again what do I know? I am just an ignorant "robot" slave to my master. ;-)

4,417 posted on 08/26/2007 8:33:59 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: irishtenor

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal!


4,418 posted on 08/26/2007 8:38:45 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: wmfights

Thank you. I hate to resort to that kind of thing, but my anger got the best of me. It’s been a tough month, with a couple of deaths in the congregation. Being an elder, I have some responsibilities with these, and that among other things has been weighing on me. Not an excuse, though. When Paul was in prison, he sang hymns, I resorted to trite comebacks.


4,419 posted on 08/26/2007 8:40:26 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: Religion Moderator

Thank you, I am trying to make amends. I have apologized to the one who made me angry, and am of a contrite heart about my actions.


4,420 posted on 08/26/2007 8:41:36 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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