Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[P-Marlowe]

The "elect" are only the 144000 martyrs from the first couple of centuries, everone else including you and me goes to heck.

Where did you get that teaching?

Are you some kind of Jehovah's witness?

[hosepipe]

[.. and you're saying that the Jews were/are pagan or cultic? ..]

Some of them.. the non christian ones.. After christ(Jesus).. absolutely.. What good are Levites with NO ARK of the Covenant.. no valid Holy Place.. and NO HOLY PLACE.. and NO HOLY ONE..

The current non christian "religious" Jews worship the Talmud and some "GOD" that meets with them no more.. A strange God.. A do-gooder God much like a Buddhist.. However God(the real one) watches over Isreal.. for future developments.. its all quite wonderful..

[wmfights]

The thief on the cross was saved exactly the same way you and I are saved -- by receiving faith in Jesus Christ.

That would be to direct and simple!

If we could all be saved by FAITH AONE then we wouldn't be dependent on a church to dispense grace refills every Sunday and what about all those indulgences, or fees we should pay so monks could pray for our departed family members to get them out of purgatory. ;-0

As you've so correctly quoted:

Mark 5:36 "Do not be afraid; only believe."

[hosepipe]

[.. and you DO realise that there is a difference between ancient Romans like Mark Antony, Caligula, Marcus Aurelius, Septimus Severus and between Catholicism, don't you? ..]

Sure.. There was no Roman Catholicism until Constantine forced all those pagans to become christians.. if that was possible.. which is wasn't.. After that instantly "priests" were needed to assuage the pagans.. pagans needed priests.. Thats where the term "priest" became a psuedo christian word.. And Roman Catholism became a Cult.. as it is today..

[hosepipe]

[.. Your statements are flat out wrong. Catholics are part of The Church that is filled with the Holy Spirit ..]

Some are, some are NOT.. Some are idol worshippers.. pure and simple.. as some protestants are.. Which is which?.. I don't know, thats not my job to divide them.. BUT they WILL be divided, soon too, I suspect.. Its quite logical as foretold by the seven churches in Asia in Revelation..

[hosepipe]

[.. A Church is a community of believers, hence the term, the Apostolic Church. ..]

Not so.. what you describe is a Club.. The "Apostolic church" is a church of the flesh.. A club of fleshy things.. The church is a spiritual family.. A family of spirits.. You must be BORN into the church not inducted/appointed.. The "Apostolic Church" is a CLUB.. which is to say, a Cult.. A Cargo Cult..

[hosepipe]

[.. The language spoken by the common man in Western Europe, in the lands that were formerly Empire, WAS Latin. ..]

Not so.. Romans and Roman Catholic priests used Latin.. ONLY.. Some used latin as a 2nd language no doubt.. but not many.. THATS WHY the language DIED..

[hosepipe]

[.. and you do realise there is a difference between a historical Empire and The Church, don't you? ..]

Don't know what you mean by "the Church".. I suspect your idea of what the church is is skewed.. We may not agree..

[hosepipe]

[.. Yes, magic rites. They also drink children's blood by the moonlight and sing "ooggga-boogga-googa-luoogga". ..]

Are you referring to the RC Eucharist.. the Mass?..
If so, you are not far from wrong.. I didn't say that you did..

[wmfights]

Your statements are flat out wrong. Catholics are part of The Church that is filled with the Holy Spirit

In the RCC do you believe the HOLY SPIRIT indwells believers, or is it the church that is filled with the HOLY SPIRIT?

[hosepipe]

[.. Do you ever read any books? Civil authorities spoke Latin the West, Greek in the East. Common men spoke Latin the West, Greek in the East. Your statements are from some "Protocols of Zion" against The Church ..]

Protocols Of Zion is a cartoon.. as is much of RC Church History(s).. A good church history records more accurate accounts..

[wmfights]

I too enjoy hosepipe's insights and testimony! And yours also, dear wmfights!

Thank you my sister in Christ.

You are putting me in very good company. :-)

[hosepipe]

[.. Some arguments never go away. Every time a position is put forth that is clearly wrong it needs to be rebutted. I enjoyed your posts and I enjoy your witness. ..]

Back atcha.. Some don't being challenged.. LoL.. And some wouldn't know the truth unless they backed over it and tripped.. Which can be quite funny.. I've done that myself, on occasion..

[Alamo-Girl]

As brothers and sisters in Christ, we are in the Good company! Praise God!!!

[wmfights]

As brothers and sisters in Christ, we are in the Good company! Praise God!!!

BIG SMILE ON MY FACE!!!

All I can say is AMEN,AMEN,AMEN PRAISE GOD!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You are not elect because of what you have done, but because of what God has done.

AMEN! God elects; Christ redeems.

A man is a child of God because God ordained His name in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world.

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee." -- Psalm 139:13-18

Then, when it pleased God to do so, He sent His Son to die for the sins of His children. And this He did not because His children had done nor eventually would do anything to earn this gift, but in order to accomplish His purpose in creation -- the salvation of those children through Jesus Christ.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11

God elects. Christ on the cross redeems to effectuate that election. Man believes, repents, obeys, is grateful and lives a life that reflects God's glory, all because God purposed it so through Jesus Christ, who "is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Col. 1:17).

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." -- Romans 5:1-10

Who but God could orchestrate such a splendid arrangement? Who but God could be so loving as to give love without requiring payment by miraculously paying for that love Himself? That's how much He loves His children. Amazingly, He loved us before we loved Him.

"Justified by His blood..." Who can say that is not enough?

[Alamo-Girl]

In the RCC do you believe the HOLY SPIRIT indwells believers, or is it the church that is filled with the HOLY SPIRIT?

The Catholic Church teaches that the Holy Spirit is imparted to the baptized person through Confirmation, that is by the laying on of hands.

On another thread I was urging my brothers and sisters in Christ who call themselves Catholic to give God the glory for the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Which is to say, Jesus Christ baptizes in the Holy Spirit and He is given according to God's will even when hands haven't been laid, the recipient hasn't been baptized or even heard the full Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That was the lesson of Cornelius - repeated three times in Scripture thus underscoring the importance:

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? – Acts 10:44-47

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? – Acts 11:15-17

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? – Acts 15:7-10

To God be the glory!

[Alamo-Girl]

Amen! Praise God!!!

[hosepipe]

[.. OK, so Foxe is supported by Church writings and tradition and is generally right, you say? ..]

Depends on the Club(church)..

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Do you believe that St. Paul has any relevance when he says that (head-covering)? Or do you only believe those Paulian verses that, well, support your beliefs?

No, I pretty much believe all of them.

Read 1 Cor. 11:15...

"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."

God gives the covering, hair, and what Paul was speaking to was a woman cutting their hair like the prostitutes of that day, much like Peter is getting at when he says don't let your world be that of the beauty parlor, the current fads.