Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your reply:

I would say that "word" can reasonably refer to a few things. One would be the scriptures,

Not refer to or be referenced by.. but "Which of these would you say is identical with the Scriptures?"

Another would be every word God ever spoke...

God has lips? :) Does this "word" refer only to that which is or has been spoken?

Another could refer to the power of God's word...

Veering off...

[Forest Keeper]

Not refer to or be referenced by.. but "Which of these would you say is identical with the Scriptures?"

Since you're asking again, I am unsure what you mean by "identical". I know it isn't "Word". I think a perfectly proper use of "word" is the scriptures that God gave us. God's Holy word is the scriptures. If your point is to distinguish between the original scriptures and the translations we have today, then we can either reason that God has compensated for any errors such that the intended message still comes through, OR, we could say that the scriptures we have are flawed and relatively useless without the men of the Church to repair them for us. The latter sounds very silly to me because it has God being impotent and needing man's help. The former sounds much more reasonable as it preserves God's control and sovereignty.

God either wants us to be dependent on Him or dependent upon men. Our faiths have gone in different directions on this issue.

God has lips? :) Does this "word" refer only to that which is or has been spoken?

The Bible is clear that God spoke. Do you deny this? I have plenty of quotes if you like. My use of "word" here was in reference to John 21:25. In this context, God's "word" includes the scriptures (God's inspired word in written form) and all other spoken words of God that we don't know about. It certainly does NOT include any extra-scriptural Tradition. God's word that is known and knowable to all can only be found in scriptures.

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your patience:

I am unsure what you mean by "identical".

The technical use - exactly the same, indistinguishable, interchangeable.

I think a perfectly proper use of "word" is the scriptures that God gave us.

Remember, Kolo's comment and reference that's the basis of the question ..

Some people think that the Word spoken of here means the literal words of God. Its John 1:1, FK.

"Word" in John 1:1...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;"

Clearer now?

It's a greek thing. :)

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "I think a perfectly proper use of "word" is the scriptures that God gave us."

Remember, Kolo's comment and reference that's the basis of the question ..

Yes, so I clearly distinguished between "word" and "Word". In John 1:1, "Word" is Christ. In other passages, "word" is scriptures. Is that what you meant? I truly am sorry if I'm being dense. :)

[OLD REGGIE]

He never says Scripture alone or Tradition alone.Blessed Augustine relied on Scripture,Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, Just like we Catholics do today.

Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium is meaningless unless backed by Scripture.

Whatever you hear from them [the Scriptures], let that be well received by you. Whatever is without them refuse, lest you wander in a cloud. (De Pastore, 11)

This Mediator [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves. City of God, book XI, Chapter 3

It would be well for you to rely less on the cherrypicking Apologist Sites and more on the entire writings of Augustine concerning the primacy of Scripture.

"...relied on Scripture,Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, Just like we Catholics do today."

Please reference Scripture which supports the Bodily Assumption Of Mary.

[MarkBsnr]

Fair spoken.

But please remember that we do not and have never claimed, not for 2000 years, that man can ascend to heaven by his own effort. We have declared heretical this belief. We keep getting accused directly or else implied that we think so. I wonder what we’re going to have to do other than frogmarch the accusers through the Catechism. They’re used to be frogmarched, aren’t they? :)

We believe, however, that God reaches out with His Grace to all, not those elected from the cosmic bingo barrel.

...(psst, I meant the waters of the Tiber, shhhh)...

[MarkBsnr]

God made all man. Old Reggie is a man. God made you.

Do I get a gold star?

[MarkBsnr]

Merriam Webster Online Dictionary defines Pope: Main Entry: pope Pronunciation: \ˈpōp\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English pāpa, from Late Latin papa, from Greek pappas, papas, title of bishops, literally, papa Date: before 12th century 1often capitalized : a prelate who as bishop of Rome is the head of the Roman Catholic Church 2: one that resembles a pope (as in authority) I submit that the cast presented to you in their own fashion, to their own ends, supplanted the Pope in Rome with their own authority. My statement stands.

[MarkBsnr]

Really? The Bible says that irishtenor (insert real name here) is going to Heaven? And I thought that WE had the complete Bible.

Am I in there somewhere?

[MarkBsnr]

I thank you for your correction, sir. Does the Greek imply any sort of choice, or is the state of "δούλους" completely without choice? There are various states of servitude, including volunarily contracting for a period of time. Or is this state a completely involuntary one?

[MarkBsnr]

Point taken.

Once again, however, we differ on the rolls of those who will go to Heaven and who will not, though; and the mechanism.

“If I believe that I am saved by the blood of the Lamb, and Christ says that not one of his own will be lost, that he has come to save all that his Father in heaven has given him, and if I believe that Jesus paid the price for all my sins, why would I think that I am going somewhere other than heaven?”

I’m still not clear on what Judgement means to the Reformed, though.

[MarkBsnr]

I’ve experienced a trial period, thanks kindly.

[Kolokotronis]

"I thank you for your correction, sir. Does the Greek imply any sort of choice, or is the state of "δούλους" completely without choice? There are various states of servitude, including voluntarily contracting for a period of time. Or is this state a completely involuntary one?"

People could and did sell themselves into slavery, but I am unaware of any limited terms of slavery. Maybe they existed; I don't know. I do know that a "δούλους" was most definitely a slave, but generally this was not a bad status. A "δούλους" could earn money and have property that was his and not his master's for example.

What we generally think of as a slave was called a "σκλαβος". These people were generally captives of some sort and were not at all treated well. For example, they were worked to death in quarries and the like.

Being a "δούλους", as I said, was not a bad thing in the context of the times. Many "δούλουoi" had a higher societal status than poor freemen and many more certainly were better educated.

When a Greek Orthodox priest gives an Orthodox Christian communion he says:

"Μεταλαμβάνει ὁ δοῦλος τοῦ Θεοῦ (Name) σώμα καὶ αἵμα Χριστοῦ, εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον. Ἀμήν."

"The servant of God (Name) receives the Body and Blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins and eternal life."

I think we all have to be on guard against allowing our Western, Enlightenment mindset distorting what The Faith is saying to us. To be called "ὁ δοῦλος τοῦ Θεοῦ" is, or at least should be, the greatest joy for us.

[stfassisi]

“It would be well for you to rely less on the cherrypicking”

Dear Brother,you’re cherry picking as well.
Most importantly, Blessed Saint Augustine’s writings are fully supportive of ALL the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.

Cherrypick all you want from his writings, In the end Saint Augustine is a strong and faithful Catholic.

“”Please reference Scripture which supports the Bodily Assumption Of Mary””

Certainly!

Our Blessed Mother is the women in Rev 12:1. Mary is the women who clothed with sun. Our Blessed Mother is seen in her physical presence in Revelation 12:1.

There is a mountain of Scriptural typology to support the Catholic teaching on Mary as the New Eve,the Ark of the New Covenant and the Daughter of Zion.

Here is some of it... http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1908117/posts?page=172#172

[stfassisi]

You say you’re skeptical on the trinity?

Did you ever here of the Kenotic Hymn ? It was written before the Gospels, and sang by the early Christians.
It is said that this hymn is an early liturgical creed that Saint Paul used in writing of 2 Phillipians 5-11

Here is an excerpt of the Hymn

“Humbled for a season,
to receive a Name
from the lips of sinners,
unto whom he came,
faithfully he bore it
spotless to the last,
brought it back victorious,
when from death he passed;

Bore it up triumphant,
with its human light,
through all ranks of creatures,
to the central height,
to the throne of Godhead,
to the Father’s breast;
filled it with the glory
of that perfect rest.

Name him, brothers, name him,
with love as strong as death,
but with awe and wonder
and with bated breath;
HE IS GOD THE SAVIOUR,
HE IS CHIRST THE LORD,
ever to be worshiped,
trusted, and adored.”

Philippians 2:6 Says “Who being in the form of God,thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”

This is because our Blessed Lord is God.

I wish you a Blessed Evening!

[kosta50]

And you have the nerve to attack those who claim Catholics worship Mary

Please make sure to inlcude us Eastern Orthodox in this incorrect assessment. Neither particular Church "worships" Mary.

[kosta50]

Actually, the Holy Trinity is made manifest in the Resurrection (Galatians 1:1, Romans 8:11, +John 2:19).

[kosta50]

Doulos is really a servant. A servant is not a slave (captive). When we become doulouoi of God, we do it on our own free will—giving ourselves to Christ (as the Liturgical text says). God does not compel or brainwash us into coming to Him; love does not rape.

[stfassisi]

I really like the New Advent explanation of of the Trinity
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm#V

[stfassisi]

Ooops,meant to post the full link
Here it is
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm