Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[OLD REGGIE]

Lord help us all. The Protestants believe that satan does God’s will.

And you have the nerve to attack those who claim Catholics worship Mary.

Are you in the habit of shooting from the hip?

[OLD REGGIE]

There you go!!!! We finally agree on something.

The only thing we can agree on is you didn't answer my question. Let me try one more time:

1. I believe in God.
2. I am skeptical regarding the Trinity. (Don't believe belief in the Trinity is necessary).
3. Am I going to Hell?

[Forest Keeper]

Some people think that the Word spoken of here means the literal words of God. Its John 1:1, FK.

Oh, OK. Thanks. I suppose then I did not mean it that way. I do distinguish between "word" and "Word".

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your reply:

We love because God first loved us.

I understand the theology; but is this why you love God? To elaborate, you do not necessarily love everyone who loves you, so "because He loves you" would not necessarily explain why you love Him.

We understand our just punishment and the salvation that God has wrought in our lives.

Is this why you love God? Would you not love God if He decided you were not to be saved?

There is no "forced" love.

Then you can make choices not to love God? If so - or even if not:

Why do you love God?

[D-fendr]

I do distinguish between "word" and "Word".

Trick question: Which of these would you say is identical with the Scriptures?

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your reply:

My question has nothing whatsoever to do with the belief of an individual that he is saved; rather, the individual saved by God once.

It gets to the different meanings ascribed to saved.

If 'saved' means Heaven then it is a one time event, and it is not "possible for God to unsave one He has already saved."

Forget for the moment the differing understandings of OSAS.."

That's where the error occurs.

[MarkBsnr]

Are you saying that man has no free will UNTIL the Holy Spirit comes into him? So the majority of men have no free will? Can you back this up biblically?

St. Irenaeus did not say CANNOT. He is not saying anything close to the Calvinist position. He is saying IF he DOES NOT. There is no cannot involved. Therefore your commentary on Irenaeus seems a tad off.

I’d say that the acknowledgement of God’s Grace is probably tantamount to accepting it, but that it can be rejected by the choice of the individual at some point in time. I’m not sure that the reverse is true.

We do have different definitions of ‘saved’. We look at ‘saved’ at the Judgement, not here in life, where it is possible to backslide. The Reformed view is that there is a point in time during life where the saving occurs. We may be talking past each other if we continue to use different definitions.

[Kolokotronis]

“Trick question: Which of these would you say is identical with the Scriptures?’

You’re good! :)

[HarleyD]

...why you love God? To elaborate, you do not necessarily love everyone who loves you, so "because He loves you" would not necessarily explain why you love Him.

Actually, I couldn't have explained it better myself. I'm not sure if I "love" everyone (I doubt it). That's part of our fallen state. The ONLY reason I love God is because He has given me this love.

Is this why you love God? [because we understand our punishment]

No. That is how we understand His grace and mercy-not His love.

Then you can make choices not to love God?

Do you think you love God because YOU choose to love Him? Here's an experiment, for the next week try to hate God. See how well you do.

Why do you love God?

Because He gave me love.

[MarkBsnr]

Do you believe that satan is God’s willing and faithful servant?

These guys do: http://www.epm.org/articles/Satanoutcome.htm

These guys do: http://www.watchtower.org/e/200611/article_02.htm

These guys do: http://www.ldolphin.org/angelicrule.html

And so does Calvin: http://www.the-highway.com/calvin-sovereignty_Murray.html

You may apologize at your leisure, sir.

[MarkBsnr]

1. That is right and good.
2. That seems to wander out towards heretical territory.
3. Beats me.

There is only One who knows. I don’t know if an individual is going to hell. The Church doesn’t know. Only God knows.

[OLD REGGIE]

That's where the error occurs.

And that's my point. You attack OSAS but don't define what you are attacking. This is similar to the attacks on Sola Scriptura. You are attacking a straw man.

[D-fendr]

The ONLY reason I love God is because He has given me this love.

I believe it would be accurate to say you believe: A)This love is not given to all, and B) Once given it cannot be refused or denied. C) Your conscious decisions and life choices have no effect on this.

Herein lies much of our disagreement.

Here's an experiment, for the next week try to hate God. See how well you do.

I've done it. I still do it, though hopefully less.

Here's a quick summary of the theology - God's love does not shine on some and not on others. It can be refused, denied, contradicted.. we can make choices to, in essence, hate God.

To state these choices in the negative, we can choose to be ignorant, unmindful, forgetful, unwise, hating, selfish and prideful. All of these choices, in essence, are hating God. We can experience this cause and effect directly. If we pay attention.

What your experiment entails in short is that I increase my pride. I can choose to do this. It is a constant spriritual exercise not to.

If we choose to become more aware, mindful, wise, loving, remembering, selfless.. then God's love, for all, will become realized in us and through us. It is not a limited resource; the more we love the more love we have to give.

In this way, Jesus's teaching and ministry and His commandments are seen more clearly, more directly. Each person can do your experiment - positively and negatively - a see for themself.

[HarleyD]

Are you saying that man has no free will UNTIL the Holy Spirit comes into him? So the majority of men have no free will? Can you back this up biblically?

Sure.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

At one time we were slaves to sin. Now we are free from sin. If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. If you want more proof of our fallen nature I would suggest Romans 3.

I’d say that the acknowledgement of God’s Grace is probably tantamount to accepting it, but that it can be rejected

If God gave grace and faith then how can man reject it? I've noticed Catholics don't like to use the term "faith". What precisely does God give?

We look at ‘saved’ at the Judgement, not here in life, where it is possible to backslide.

Then is any of the Saints' saved? Is Mary saved?

[OLD REGGIE]

There is only One who knows. I don’t know if an individual is going to hell. The Church doesn’t know. Only God knows.

Good answer. A more charitable answer in fact than I have received from some Fundamentalist Protestants.

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your reply:

You attack OSAS but don't define what you are attacking.

Once Saved Always Saved. The doctrine in its various forms. Its a term of art in Protestant theology.

[OLD REGGIE]

Do you believe that satan is God’s willing and faithful servant?

These guys do: http://www.epm.org/articles/Satanoutcome.htm

These guys do:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/200611/article_02.htm

These guys do: http://www.ldolphin.org/angelicrule.html

And so does Calvin: http://www.the-highway.com/calvin-

sovereignty_Murray.html

You may apologize at your leisure, sir.

What in the world is their for me to apologize for? Certainly not your universal condemnations of "Protestants" is it?

You have listed three individuals and the non-Protestant Jehova Witness web site. What did you say?

Lord help us all. The Protestants believe that satan does God’s will.

Without qualification you claim THE PROTESTANTS, a universal statement is it not?

I'll not ask for an apology where none is called for. I will however be looking for you to admit the utter inanity of your claim.

[OLD REGGIE]

Once Saved Always Saved. The doctrine in its various forms. Its a term of art in Protestant theology.

Is the bar too low? Why do you duck the question?

Please define OSAS. Certainly you aren't attacking OSAS in all it's various forms are you?

If you throw enough mud (I'm chicken) up against the wall some of it will stick. Throw away.

[D-fendr]

Ducking? The term is self-descriptive and the basic concept well known by I believe pretty much any poster on this thread. If you want to pursue its various forms and variations, try Google.

[MarkBsnr]

Inanity?

Martin Luther said that “Even the devil is God’s devil.”

Shall I look up Zwingli next to see what his beliefs were?